HARM realism?

[Osmeen]

I am 15-10 miles away from SA3 (active and red on HTS) in Tiger spirit, then I ask my wingman to shoot. He shoots and the HARM misses!?:mad:
even though the radar is active still (radiating the target) and even though it is shot from a close distance. Is there something wrong, or is it normal. Although when shoots an inactive (green) SA-10 it never misses, even from 20 miles or more away from the target! that doesn’t make sense now does it

[molnibalage]

You should not be angry. ARMs are very, very, very overmodeld in Falcon universe. Do you know how many HARMs were launched during the AF? About 1000 to achieve about a dozen hit or kill… In short, many RL features and cases are not modeled. I have to say be happy with this one miss. In RL and a hardroce MOD a single flight - especially with older ARMs - it may can kill a single battalion rather than a single flight destroys many SAMs…

[Dee-Jay]

+1

HARM is not 100% pk … even not in BMS.

[JDHammer]

So about 85 Harms per target? I did not know that, wonder how much they cost.

[Dee-Jay]

@JDHammer:

So about 85 Harms per target?

No …

It seems that you are misunderstanding what HARM is made for.

It is not to destroy the SAM (DEAD mission) … it is to deter operator to switch on their radar (SEAD). Most of HARMs has been launched in preventive against target to force them to stay silent.

[molnibalage]

@JDHammer:

So about 85 Harms per target? I did not know that, wonder how much they cost.

Most of them launched in a preventive way but even with this kind of method the Pk is quite low. Even druing the El Dorado Canyon dozens of ARM were a launched even the new AGM-88 and only some hit was achieved.

[Frederf]

To be fair Serbian AD was very smart and extra cautious about EMCON which is why their SAM threat persisted throughout the campaign. SAMs didn’t shoot much but they survived and by their existence reduced NATO air effectiveness by altitudes, package composition, etc.

Iraq on the other hand had poor EMCON for SAMs and had their system neutralized in a few days.

The realism for ARMs is overwhelmingly dependent on the ground force behavior. The BMS HARMs might be absolutely perfect in modeling but have an excessive effect due to careless target behavior.

[Dee-Jay]

Agree.

[Alfred]

[Master Yoda]

If a HARM misses its target, it has done the job it was meant to do: Force the enemy to switch off. No wonder 1000’s were spent for very few kills (in AF).

[Stevie]

@Dee-Jay:

No …

It seems that you are misunderstanding what HARM is made for.

It is not to destroy the SAM (DEAD mission) … it is to deter operator to switch on their radar (SEAD). Most of HARMs has been launched in preventive against target to force them to stay silent.

Actually, it takes out the antenna…and if you do it “right” in FAF you can make them do that. At least in the Training Missions - what you do with your own radar makes it work. They seem to react very smartly to being looked back at.

[TheSilkMan]

All I can say is it is as frustrating as heck. Running the HARM training mission over and over again, I hand off a HAS mode target to my Wingman and he hits the SAM sites 100% of the time. I miss 100% of the time in both HAS (waiting for the RDY) and POS(selecting SAM from HSD, aligning in between the bars and on centerline) modes. This occurs with SA2, SA3, SA4, & SA6. In comparison to my wing, that does not look like correct PK. It always goes to the left or right of the target. I mean, do I have to follow the missile in and let them keep me locked up and fire on me in order for my missile to get a hit? Firing just outside of the threat circle while being painted or further out, I still get the same results. I don’t remember the HARMs being this bad even when we were in the Realism group. I realize back then we didn’t have the HARM modes we have now but we did have the data.

As far as HARM doing its job by missing the target(???), AI doesn’t seem to delay or be deterred with firing on you after you miss.

I’ve been at this for the last 2 weeks. Perhaps this works out differently in campaign and multiplayer but as of right now, something seems off…

[shisabandit]

As stated before its the ground behavior that will determine wether the harm can hit or not does not matter what mode you are in or whatever that is just to give the missile its inital launch vector trajectory and priority of radar types. You must be flying the TE the exact same way do something so the behavior of the ground force changes.
BTW SAMS are doing their job if they are going cold before you hit them.

[Canuck]

@TheSilkMan:

All I can say is it is as frustrating as heck. Running the HARM training mission over and over again, I hand off a HAS mode target to my Wingman and he hits the SAM sites 100% of the time. I miss 100% of the time in both HAS (waiting for the RDY) and POS(selecting SAM from HSD, aligning in between the bars and on centerline) modes. This occurs with SA2, SA3, SA4, & SA6. In comparison to my wing, that does not look like correct PK. It always goes to the left or right of the target. I mean, do I have to follow the missile in and let them keep me locked up and fire on me in order for my missile to get a hit? Firing just outside of the threat circle while being painted or further out, I still get the same results. I don’t remember the HARMs being this bad even when we were in the Realism group. I realize back then we didn’t have the HARM modes we have now but we did have the data.

As far as HARM doing its job by missing the target(???), AI doesn’t seem to delay or be deterred with firing on you after you miss.

I’ve been at this for the last 2 weeks. Perhaps this works out differently in campaign and multiplayer but as of right now, something seems off…

Are you taking into account what was written to you as an answer or are you too pissed off because you didn’t get the kill ?

[TopAirspace]

This is a post from 2013, so wouldn’t the original issue pertain to Falcon 4.32??

[TheSilkMan]

Hi Shisa, they are not going cold. I am watching them on the Scope specifically to see if I hit them(as indicated by them disappearing after my missile times out-which never happens). They are emitting from the time of launch to timing out of the HARM missile and are not blanking out off the scope and then coming back lit. This is in 4.34.

[TheSilkMan]

@TopAirspace:

This is a post from 2013, so wouldn’t the original issue pertain to Falcon 4.32??

Not sure, but I was about to post about what I am seeing in 4.34 by starting a new thread. But since this thread was already there with a fresh post I placed my findings here.

[TheSilkMan]

@Canuck:

Are you taking into account what was written to you as an answer or are you too pissed off because you didn’t get the kill ?

I’m not too pissed, and I see what Shisa is saying. I am just not seeing the behavior that was presented(such as the site cutting the radar off to mask and throw off my HARM shot). After flying the exact same way, I altered things such as order and approach of attacks. I’ve tried many approaches from normal charted flight path, over the ocean, from the shoreline, attacking the various SAM types in differing order(SA2 then SA4 or SA6 then SA3), etc. Nevertheless, my wingman still kills every SAM handed off to him during our runs. My shots miss 100% of the missions flown.

[BuzzU]

Help me understand this. Why would a SAM be any harder to hit than any other ground target?

[Icarus]

@BuzzU:

Help me understand this. Why would a SAM be any harder to hit than any other ground target?

You are firing HARMs at other ground targets??? I hope not. If not, then you need to realize HARMs are nothing like the other weapons you deploy on ground targets. SAMs are just as easy to hit with CBUs as any other target using CBU’s. HARMs are for SEAD, CBUs are for DEAD.