Getting AI flights to AAR

[Planehazza]

If I change the waypoint of an AI Escort flight to refuel, will they hit the tankers?

I scheduled a tanker to be out to sea about an hour before I’m TOT. I plan to hit the tanker on the way home to Kunsan. I’ve schedule a 2 ship escort but they’re flying a little further from Choongwon. I’ve given the KF-16C32s 3 bags but to be safe I’d prefer they topped up on the way home also.

[Frederf]

AI AAR requires the task and the time. AI skip waypoints if the schedule gets tight so budget “patrol time” ~10m for 2-ship and ~15m for 4-ship minimum. Planning a just in time one-time tanker track (> 100nm?) can take the random element of an orbiting tanker out of the equation. You have to increase the times of the next waypoints so they don’t become time critical before the AAR is complete.

What you’ll find is because the AI calculate dynamic bingo for the remainder of the flight plan (incl. alternate) that the “tanker gas to get home” is a no-go. If at any point they bingo out they will abort direct RTB so in order to have a leaving AAR they need to have enough fuel to finish the flight in which case AAR not needed. This is correct and realistic for human ops as well. Reliance on AAR to recover is a no no. The other thing about AAR is they take a full load in all cases so an exit AAR is just dooming AI to a hot and heavy landing as well as a lot of time on the boom.

Outbound or mid-sortie AAR is infinitely more practical and it does work. I’ve done a 20-30 AI COMAO which is a stupid amount of work but it’s fun to see 4-6 flights prepare on 2 tankers before blowing through the target area into a just-in-time BARCAP/SEAD receiving screen to return a different route.

I think AI will bingo out of a flight plan even if they can get AAR outbound that would let them but it’s not as big of an obstacle as you might think. The bingo calc at reasonable speeds and altitudes stretches the projected fuel very far.

On the other hand human-lead AI will fly their tanks dry because they trust you to more closely manage them (I think this was a recent change).

[Planehazza]

@Frederf:

AI AAR requires the task and the time. AI skip waypoints if the schedule gets tight so budget “patrol time” ~10m for 2-ship and ~15m for 4-ship minimum. Planning a just in time one-time tanker track (> 100nm?) can take the random element of an orbiting tanker out of the equation. You have to increase the times of the next waypoints so they don’t become time critical before the AAR is complete.

What you’ll find is because the AI calculate dynamic bingo for the remainder of the flight plan (incl. alternate) that the “tanker gas to get home” is a no-go. If at any point they bingo out they will abort direct RTB so in order to have a leaving AAR they need to have enough fuel to finish the flight in which case AAR not needed. This is correct and realistic for human ops as well. Reliance on AAR to recover is a no no. The other thing about AAR is they take a full load in all cases so an exit AAR is just dooming AI to a hot and heavy landing as well as a lot of time on the boom.

Outbound or mid-sortie AAR is infinitely more practical and it does work. I’ve done a 20-30 AI COMAO which is a stupid amount of work but it’s fun to see 4-6 flights prepare on 2 tankers before blowing through the target area into a just-in-time BARCAP/SEAD receiving screen to return a different route.

I think AI will bingo out of a flight plan even if they can get AAR outbound that would let them but it’s not as big of an obstacle as you might think. The bingo calc at reasonable speeds and altitudes stretches the projected fuel very far.

On the other hand human-lead AI will fly their tanks dry because they trust you to more closely manage them (I think this was a recent change).

Great to hear thanks. I’m still learning about the ‘basics’ - as with most people who fly casually, they want to drop bombs before learning navigation etc. ha. I don’t fully understand these things, and flight plan timing (aside from setting TOT) is something I usually leave entirely to the HQ/ATO to generate. Even when I build my own flights/packages, all I do is set the flightplan so that the desired TOT gives a TO time of around 2 hours or more (sim time) from now. Gives me plenty planning time and a bit of over head to ensure SEAD/Escort flights can meet us at the PP.

I found that my escort flight hit the tanker as planned, but from what you suggest, it doesn’t sound like they hit BINGO yet. They were flying from Choongwon, heading WNW to meet us over sea to then fly round the coast line before swinging East toward Sunan. I gave them three full bags and planned in a tanker stop en route to home plate. Seems I was overly cautious with fuel requirements, especially as we hit zero air resistance. I need to read up on calculating JOKER/BINGO properly. I wonder if this is something WDP will do?

I took a screen shot of the FPs for the two flights in my package, but I forgot to upload it last night. I’ll do it tonight so you can see what I had planned. My flight was a simple two ship, carrying two 88s each. I had planned two TGT STPTs, both targetting SA2 sites. We took out the two main Fan Songs, as well as another opportunisitc one, but we sadly got mission fail and poor rating due to lack of damage. In my eyes, we succeeded however. I didn’t plan a true DEAD mission - I simply wanted to push a door through the SAMs in the mid West of N Korea, which we did. I can follow up in the next day with a more typical DEAD to destroy the launchers.

[Frederf]

WDP will take a crack at calculating bingo at each fix along the route given some user input for landing fuel requirements. Each waypoint has a bingo number. For example it’s possible to be bingo fuel as the landing gear are being raised on takeoff. Joker is just some amount in excess of bingo that satisfies committing to extra-curricular activity. How much above bingo is needed for a particular engagement type to be attempted is a very human decision. WDP has a spot on the form to write it down but it’s not a calculation. Default wingman AI have a joker ~1000 lbs over bingo IIRC.

Full fuel planning down to the drop is a lot of work but various approximations, X lbs/nm and so on. Most are braindead no AAR and 2 wing bag affairs.

Don’t put too much stock in “mission fails” as it’s often nothing to do with pilot performance. If it was SEAD support for another flight in the package it could have been fragged as a SEAD (SEAD escort) flight instead of DEAD to change the success criteria but not critical.

[freedomlover]

@Planehazza:

If I change the waypoint of an AI Escort flight to refuel, will they hit the tankers?

I scheduled a tanker to be out to sea about an hour before I’m TOT. I plan to hit the tanker on the way home to Kunsan. I’ve schedule a 2 ship escort but they’re flying a little further from Choongwon. I’ve given the KF-16C32s 3 bags but to be safe I’d prefer they topped up on the way home also.

Why do you need to top up your wing-men on the way home if it is not necessary? Get the fuel necessary and that’s it. 3000 or 4000 lbs are normally more than enough. I do not think in real life they always top-up. Many times they take what they need to go back and divert to the alternate if necessary

[hoover]

I sometimes go to the tanker post mission and take on, say 1,5000 pounds or so just to “stay in shape”. My AI wingie usually tops up, it would be cool to have a configurable setting on how much fuel to take on (maybe use the amount loaded by the human lead after he / she explicitly issues the “done refuelling” command to the tanker and top up AI only if the human player topped up, too).

Cheers, Uwe

[Planehazza]

@hoover:

I sometimes go to the tanker post mission and take on, say 1,5000 pounds or so just to “stay in shape”. My AI wingie usually tops up, it would be cool to have a configurable setting on how much fuel to take on (maybe use the amount loaded by the human lead after he / she explicitly issues the “done refuelling” command to the tanker and top up AI only if the human player topped up, too).

Cheers, Uwe

Or maybe various options in the Tanker menu. Instead of Y - 2 to say ready to take fuel, you could have a few preset options saying 2000lbs, 5000lbs, or until full? Would be pretty sweet.

[LorikEolmin]

I tried to experiment a bit while refueling on my way back tonight.

2’s refueling can be stopped by a “rejoin” order, he tops off and form up to you.
3’s refueling as well, but 4 doesn’t get to refuel at all, and in my case, remained formed on the tanker.

I tried a second time, and all three wingmen remained with the tanker and refused to physically form on me. The only thing that seemed to bring them back is my “inbound for landing” call.

I’ll assume that you can control a 2 A/C flight refuel time.

@hoover:

I sometimes go to the tanker post mission and take on, say 1,5000 pounds or so just to “stay in shape”. My AI wingie usually tops up, it would be cool to have a configurable setting on how much fuel to take on (maybe use the amount loaded by the human lead after he / she explicitly issues the “done refuelling” command to the tanker and top up AI only if the human player topped up, too).

Cheers, Uwe

[Frederf]

You have to be really careful with AI flight member orders when in AAR process. Due to how it is coded the AI of your flight are temporarily assigned as belonging to the tanker. Any control of your FMs during the process is not guaranteed to be pleasant.

[Planehazza]

For me, the rest of my flight is done refuelling and almost empty by the time I’ve managed to get into a good formation with the tanker I’m that bad…

[gza036]

@LorikEolmin:

I tried to experiment a bit while refueling on my way back tonight.

2’s refueling can be stopped by a “rejoin” order, he tops off and form up to you.
3’s refueling as well, but 4 doesn’t get to refuel at all, and in my case, remained formed on the tanker.

I tried a second time, and all three wingmen remained with the tanker and refused to physically form on me. The only think that seemed to bring them back is my “inbound for landing” call.

I’ll assume that you can control a 2 A/C flight refuel time.

Exactly. I lose 2-3 of my wingmen every time I refuel.
I’ve been refueling every flight so it’s happened about 20 times.

[LorikEolmin]

I suppose you already know you can let the refuelling end by itself and recover all of your wingmen.

@gza036:

Exactly. I lose 2-3 of my wingmen every time I refuel.
I’ve been refueling every flight so it’s happened about 20 times.

[gza036]

I’ve had them become stuck even when I let them refuel to completion.