CCRP release parameters
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Just getting to this (incredibly informative) post. Thanks all for your detailed analysis. Was having consistent issues with CCRP releasing in campaign. Turned out it was truly as simple as waiting to pickle-and-hold until the very last half-second.
GT
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…with CCRP, but as we know, the loft cue is problematic, and if he’s releasing on the first cue and not the second that might be the issue…
Okay, I’ve been having the dickens of a problem lofting CBUs at a SA2 site. I think you might have solved my problem: “…loft cue is problematic…” What exactly? A bug? a glitch? (I am a noob and am using 4.33)
I’ve come in at 100-500 feet, lined up the flight path circle on the vertical azimuth line, see the timer count down, see the first cue descend the Az line, see the circle, then see the circle flash, then the count down reaches zero, I pull up, sometimes the cue falls through my FPM sometimes it doesn’t, and the CBUs…NEVER RELEASE! (Yes, master arm is on arm and yes I set up the CBUs in the SMS and CNTL pages of the MFD). (And yes the “low” marker never rises to the FPM area.)
So my question is(are): Is the lofting cue broken as supanova hinted at, something I didn’t get the memo? Or is lofting/CCRP very exacting?
In other words, I am not sure that my pullup is EXACTLY 45 degrees (or 30 if I change it, or 25 degrees, etc).
I am NOT sure that my airspeed is consistent.
I am NOT sure that my pullup is exactly 4 Gs (or 2Gs, or whatever).Is lofting exacting and does everything need to exactly align at exactly the correct moment? The bombing computer won’t compensate for human error? Do I have to be exactly at X-feet and begin the PU at exactly cue crossing the FPM and climb at exactly 4Gs to exactly 30 degrees nose up at exactly Y kts and hold the pickle immediately before I begin and until pass-through?
The computer won’t calculate on-the-fly if I’m climbing 0.5 seconds early, at 550 kts, and only make 27 degrees of nose up? Or at 280 kts but 6 Gs at 52 degrees up?
Or is each munition constrained by delivery parameters? Params for height, drop time, angle of up/down nose, airspeed, Gs being pulled?
This is frustrating as heck.
I’m also having trouble just dropping the CBUs on the SA2 site in CCRP level/slightly diving (i.e. the second cue descending), too.
I have successfully had ONE CBU release from the rack in level CCRP, but had seven other attacks the CBU NOT release from the rack. Each attack was varying heights, speeds, angle of dive (though all was slight and near-level flight). I have successfully completed several iterations of the Bombing training mission with both CCIP and CCRP with the inert bombs, but transiting to the “real” Campaign with different ordnance on the rack is not happening for some reason.Ideas?
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Just ignore the loft cue.
Well actually use it as an advance warningFirst cue, get ready, look at the distance, stay level
4.5 Nm Pull (mind the G, no bomb over G) and go up, keep your speed in, align with the CCRP cue
wait for the second cue, pickle keep pickle in till bombs separateTurnleft, level out or start your descent, acquire, track, lase, boom
The whole trick is the distance
At 550kts, 500 feet AGL, 4.5 - 5 Nm always makes a good release -
I created a simple Tactical Engagement with a single F16 and a few steer points, loaded with 12 MK82LDGP bombs and a centreline tank. I have been using this the last 2 days to experiment with CCRP mode, since I am having the same issue in my campaign (bombs not coming off the plane). I set the bombs to 1 Pair/RP 1 so that they release 2 at a time to keep the plane symmetrical, just like I was doing in my campaign, for a total of 6 bomb runs each time I run the TE. I was just aiming at random steerpoints and dropping, mostly (not always) from low level, and mostly (not always) trying to loft when the first cue happens. The steer points were not aligned with any target, the test was just to see if the bombs would release. I have run this TE at least 20 times over the last few days, 6 bomb drops each time.
I have experimented with:
- Different Rel Angle settings (seems to affect when you see the release cue, but no affect on whether the bombs would release)
- Ramp start where I must enable master arm vs Runway start where master arm is already enabled (no difference)
- Level VS loft bombing at different angles (both work)
- Pulling up immediately after the circle flashes vs waiting for different times (it only affects the angle I get to before the bombs release … earlier pullup = steeper angle)
- Different speeds (only affects how early the flashing circle happens, faster = sooner)
- Overspeeding the aircraft (I went as high as 600 knots briefly a few times, but the bombs still worked)
- Over G the aircraft … as high as 6.0 a few times but they still worked.
- Different pages visible on the MFDs, just in case there is some weird bug there
- Holding pickle button down up to 30 seconds before release vs 1 second before release
- Probably other factors that I have forgotten now
The result after more than 100 CCRP releases was that the bombs came off the plane cleanly every single time.
Next I went back to my campaign, and the very first mission the bombs failed to release from the plane in CCRP mode (lofting). I did absolutely nothing different to any of the tests in my TE … same weapon type, same settings, same cockpit setup, same parameters. I switched to CCIP mode and the bombs released first try, so the bombs weren’t over speed/over G, and I had no faults on the jet.
So my question is, why does CCRP work perfectly every single time in a test TE, but fail to release regularly during a campaign? The biggest difference between the two on my machine is the frame rate. I got roughly 100 FPS in the TE, and usually around 50 - 60 fps in the campaign. Is this a factor? Is there a way to cap my frame rate in the TE to see if it then has the same issue?
Whoa! That’s me! (Although nowhere near as much fidelity as your trials). The inerts come off fine in the bombing training mission and you know I was all kinds of weird attitudes in that mission, yet the CBUs almost NEVER comes off in the campaign!!! What gives?
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scratch. Already covered in a previous post.
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Ill have to do some tests in a TE then. Frame rate being a factor could be a thing, seeing as how theres apparently impact on the RK4 algorithm with frame rate.
Don’t think so. His HUD heading shows ~ “25”. It is in tens, not ones. That be 25 tens, or 250 degrees. 270 is west. The DED shows his wind is from 332 degrees. From the north-northwest. Or, to the right of west. He was correct.
You are correct. I was mistaken here. I direct your attention to post #47 of this thread.
The symbology and read-outs show a wind blowing him (hence his bombs) to the left, but yet the az line wants him to aim even more left of target.
You are incorrect. The symbology shows a wind blowing him and his bombs to the left, and the azimuth line wants him to turn to the right.
The azimuth line is positioned relative to the FPM, not relative to the target. The key piece of information is that one degree horizontal displacement of the azimuth steering line does not equal one degree course correction. Else, you would not be able to see the steering line if the TD is outside the HUD FOV.
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You are incorrect. The symbology shows a wind blowing him and his bombs to the left, and the azimuth line wants him to turn to the right.
The azimuth line is positioned relative to the FPM, not relative to the target. The key piece of information is that one degree horizontal displacement of the azimuth steering line does not equal one degree course correction. Else, you would not be able to see the steering line if the TD is outside the HUD FOV.
Ack. [“acknowledged”]
Thanks for that clarification on the Azline vs the FPM and not vs the target. -
Ideas?
Hi,
What if you try halving the SMS page release angle as suggested by Frederf in the link below? Then, you need to pull up to your actually desired loft angle, but the cues will be much closer to correct.
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@Red:
Just ignore the loft cue.
Well actually use it as an advance warningFirst cue, get ready, look at the distance, stay level
4.5 Nm Pull (mind the G, no bomb over G) and go up, keep your speed in, align with the CCRP cue
wait for the second cue, pickle keep pickle in till bombs separateTurnleft, level out or start your descent, acquire, track, lase, boom
The whole trick is the distance
At 550kts, 500 feet AGL, 4.5 - 5 Nm always makes a good releaseThanks. Sounds good advice.
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Okay, I just flew a campaign mission combining three great advices: RedDog, johku, and Frederf.
I set release angle to 15 degrees (HALF of the 30 degrees that I was looking for)
I ignored the first (loft) cue and the circle.
I counted a four-count after the circle flashed and went away. Then I began pull up.
Pull up did NOT exceed 4 Gs.
Pickled at the last possible instant, but before the cue touched the FPM; glanced at the “RDY”/“REL” on the SMS page to be sure.Low and behold, the second cue made it all the way down to the FPM (didn’t only just tease it then run back up like previous missions) and CBU left the rack. Every time. “Every of the times” as said by Kevin from The Office.
Other parameters:
I found myself a lot closer than RedDog’s advice. My four-count put me ~3.6, maybe ~3.8 miles instead of 4.5 miles away from target.Dropped four CBUs then called it a night, speed varied between low 400kts to above 500kts. I think that was slightly below mach 0.6 and slightly above 0.7. I just did quick glances at the mach meter so those are estimates.
I didn’t closely study if the second cue touched FPM at exactly double (30) the programmed angle (15), but it was pretty much spot on. At least a lot closer than when I earlier flew it by the book and by the symbology.
Did not “fly through” the release (e.g. I didn’t do an Immlemann nor half-loop/upward split-S) but that was only because as soon as CBU cleared rack I went to shift-7 view to stare at the weapon. Weapon seemed to track true, saw the bursting charge, then saw the submunitions go off. i guess if I were doing it “for real” I’d do a better follow-through.
So, problem solved. CBUs leaving racks now.
But now another problem. I still missed target. I did all the "recon"and setting the exact coords of the Fan Song onto STPT 20 and saved the DTC in the Mission Schedule screen, but the CCRP pop-up attack did not put the CBU onto the Fan Song nor any of the two adjacent launchers.
Slightly thread hijack/off topic but related: Am I being stingy with the SGL & 1 Pulse? Should I Pair or SGL & 2-pulse the CBU to kill SA2 stuff? How reliable/accurate should I be expecting the targeting if I do the correct Recon and Accept and Save steps in the planning screen? Should I expect majority of hits, misses, 50-50, or what?Are the techniques we’re discussing herein to facilitate ornance leaving the racks causing inaccuracies in bomb strike/impact?
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Hello,
The CEP for Loft is not bad in BMS. In my test, it measured below 200’. It means that CBU can hit the target if u designate the target correctly.
The following movie, i tested 6 times loft, show the miss distance from the target center in the movie description below.
You can also check the profile for 30degs Loft bombing in there -
You’d release minimum two CBU-87 in reality if not more. If you can get away with less in Falcon and still kill stuff then great. I wouldn’t stick my neck out for any less than two weapons per pass on a Fan Song probably with ~200’ of spacing between weapons to ensure good coverage. Falcon CCRP lofting and target generation is amazingly precise to the point that MK84 or even MK82 isn’t out of the question.
Speed decay might be a function of load and drag. The video above loses <5kt during the maneuver. I’m sure if you’re fat with 4 cans and 10klbs of fuel that you’ll lose more speed than that. Feel free to AB sprint up to, first half, or throughout the maneuver if the speed is needed. The idea is to minimize your IR signature but maybe the thrust is a better insurance policy against harm. The faster you go the better kinematic reach the weapons have but also the larger your turn radius which leads to move exposure before and after release. This is the balance.
Video above shows release at 2G or less on the first run which isn’t standard practice. The later ones are more normal. The gun cross should be sweeping up the pitch ladder at a constant (if not increasing) rate during release and after release keep the G on. Perform a loaded roll keeping release G+0.5 minimum to get some separation from your weapon. Bunting over straight line after release means you’re flying danger zone formation with a lot of high explosives. Back pressure on the stick should be almost constant from the beginning of the pop up until your nose is pointed at the dirt on egress before rolling level and missing the ground. Survival is graded on minimal height gained and time exposed.