SEAD tactics - israel theater
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first up, i’m new to this theater
now, i do a lot of SEAD in korea. i have high-tech crutches in korea. i can shoot from a stupid range (seems like more than most SAs can) with HARM at prefixed targets, and then i can run away. however, that doesn’t seem to be an option here. i’ve tried bombing with high-precision GBU/12/24, which could easily destroy the targets using CCRP at angels 25, however, here’s what generally happens
TOT ~3minutes BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP counter, counter
pull split S and turn and burn to evade the missile, 80-90% survival rate (unless out of chaff)
pull back to altitude i was at, realign to target, TOT ~3minutesBEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP counter
repeat
so i imagine the way to do this is to go in low flying NOE and use CCIP or DTOSS, however i tried that and i inexplicably exploded. so i assume i had an encounter with the friendly neighborhood strela or shilka
how do you guys go about destroying these things without standoff weapons? i never manage to get even anywhere near the target before being forced to bail out of the local airspace because of a missile warning. that’s not even putting MIG-29s into the equation, which can follow you (and seem to like to do so)
i’m not complaining btw, i really like the theater, especially how knife-fighty it gets because of the relative lowtech, IR missiles everywhere sort of thing it’s got going. pretty nice.
also it’s pretty.
thoughts on the problem?
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There have been some discussions about the ‘lack’ of standoff weapons in ITO 0.99 recently. Check these threads:
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?17392-SA-6-SEAD-without-standoff-weapons&highlight=SEAD
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?17421-No-HARMs-and-Mavericks-in-ITO-v0-99!&highlight=sa-11+seadCheers!
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In real, SEAD missions are not in IAF inventory.
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SEAD is done by the IAF, however, weapons and tactics are different from those used by the USAF.
Recommended method is to use JDAM for low altitude LOFT attacks.
On a preplanned target it’s very straight forward. On the mobile batteries it requires some quick thinking.
You can either lock the target with the radar, make a mark point and then go for the attack. Another option is to use the TGP to make the mark point after visually identifying the FCR on the battery.Either way, low alt loft/toss profile allows you to hit the target from about 10nm without going above 6000ft (with practice you are on a reverced heading at low altitude within 25 seconds of initial popup
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SEAD is done by the IAF, however, weapons and tactics are different from those used by the USAF.
Recommended method is to use JDAM for low altitude LOFT attacks.
On a preplanned target it’s very straight forward. On the mobile batteries it requires some quick thinking.
You can either lock the target with the radar, make a mark point and then go for the attack. Another option is to use the TGP to make the mark point after visually identifying the FCR on the battery.Either way, low alt loft/toss profile allows you to hit the target from about 10nm without going above 6000ft (with practice you are on a reverced heading at low altitude within 25 seconds of initial popup
can you please explain what the advantage of using JDAMs is over other laserguideds? is there something special about them? do they glide or something? do you try to pick the launchers out at like 80~m with GM radar then markpoint and move in for a DTOSS run? how good are you at it and what’s your accuracy%? i ask because i’ve had very little success so far with low level CCIP runs with CBU-87s; the 87s easily kill whatever they hit, and accuracy is near 100%… however i don’t know if SA-3 and up have a down angle limit on their radar; i do get engaged even when flying at like 200~ft and lower, and they’re still pretty lethal. the missile climbs to like 3000 and then dives onto me. if i’m far enough away from the launcher i die like 50% of the time, and pretty often they’ll have piles of the things, more than i have bombs.
thanks for your help.
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@Cik:
can you please explain what the advantage of using JDAMs is over other laserguideds? is there something special about them? do they glide or something?
JDAMs are INS/GPS-guided coordinate seeking weapons. As long as you have the correct coordinates and release the weapon correctly it will most likely hit its target without any input from you post release. Essentially, fire and forget so you can go defensive immediately after weapon release.
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SEAD is done by the IAF, however, weapons and tactics are different from those used by the USAF.
Had to learn fast after the mauling from the Egyptian IADS (SA-6/3) in 73 - although I believe they were using AGM-45s back then as well.
In 82 taking out the Bekaa valley SAMs (Syrian) seems to have been clever use of UAVs/Drones along with AGM-65 armed F-4s.
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Either way, low alt loft/toss profile allows you to hit the target from about 10nm without going above 6000ft (with practice you are on a reverced heading at low altitude within 25 seconds of initial popup
I would like some more info on this profile. With a 20* loft with GBU-38s the loft cue doesn’t appear until ~7nm out and I get really close to busting 6000’.
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@migbuster, the F4s in “Artzav19” used AGM78s and AGM62s (walleye). AFAIK, AGM65s never saw operational use in the IAF, and we’re eventually taken out of service.
@jinro88. Set profile 1 in CCRP mode with loft angle 35 degrees. Profile 2 to MAN, either single bomb or 2 bombs in single ripple.when approaching the target Go full mil on the deck. Be mindfully to the 620kts external fuel tank limitation. When you get the pull up cue (about 12-10 nm) go into Full AB, hold 3 seconds and start a gentle pull up (g limit), once your nose crosses 35 degrees nose up pickle in PROF2. No need to wait for release cue. Good luck!
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What speed on ingress? I do 200’ at 550kts and the pull up cue doesn’t appear until 7-8nm.
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Set the angle to 35. The angle is what sets the cue distance.
550-580 should give you a pull up at about 10nm -
@migbuster, the F4s in “Artzav19” used AGM78s and AGM62s (walleye). AFAIK, AGM65s never saw operational use in the IAF, and we’re eventually taken out of service.
Is mentioned in 2 sources that claim AGM-65s (and AGM-78 ) used - 1 is 1990 quite old admittedly - the other 2002:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Iron-Hand-Smashing-Enemys-Defences/dp/1852606053
Mastiff RPV / scout drones used - with Samson (Early TALD) it states
They definitely had some - why were they not used when Iran and everyone else had such success with them?
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In real, SEAD <=> DEAD
If my “translation” to your answer is correct, and considering as a fact what the symbol <=> means/does in mathematics, if you think that a SEAD mission is the same or points-to a DEAD mission shortly after, or vice-versa, you are wrong. Or at least rl docs clearly define and state the differences and the specific objectives per mission, used weaponry, and wanted outcome.
SEAD is done by the IAF, however, weapons and tactics are different from those used by the USAF.
Recommended method is to use JDAM for low altitude LOFT attacks.
Apart that it was officially stated so by IAF officials at the latest exercise,
SEAD: Suppression
DEAD: DestructionFor a weapon to be certified for suppression, it needs to be able to fly and stay autonomous above/near a forward operations area, able to self-track and attack any possible emission coming from a ground radar or SAM radar. The objective of the mission is to not allow any radar sensor emit due to fear of destruction, so to forbid the track of any trailing attacking aircraft, most commonly as parts of a larger COMAO. If eventually such a shot/missile of a SEAD-mission-aircraft does manage to track and destroy a ground emitter, it is not considered as a DEAD point but as an opportunity-target-kill. The only weapons capable of doing so are the Harm and Alarm. Since none are in the IAF inventory (currently, since Harm purchase is on approval stage by US Congress), and no Alarm missile is certified for the F-16, that gives a safe FACT that no SEAD capabilities for IAF, at least for the next 2-3 years, and if US Congress gives the green light for the export. Older missiles in IAF inventory like Strike and Standard are not used anymore (as of my knowledge), and even if they were active they don’t have the ability to stay above an area, only to perform a direct hit as from a pre- launch locked emission, which is a DEAD action.
The only missile in IAF inventory that could be described as partially close to that is the Delilah, due to the ability of flying above an area for large times using INS/autopilot as and real time guidance through datalink from a MFD on the viper, BUT, since it has TV-EO and IR tracking sensors only and not any radar-transmitted energy sensors, it is not to be considered as such a suppression weapon. A good camouflage net in visual and ir spectrum could turn possible targets completely stealth to Delilah and free to emit as necessary without fear of destruction.
“use JDAM for low altitude LOFT attacks” is a Destruction = DEAD mission, against static ground radar stations. You cannot enforce ANY radar emitters to shut down by fear that they will be destroyed by free-fall bombs…
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In real, SEAD <=> DEAD.
If my “translation” to your answer is correct, and considering as a fact what the symbol <=> means/does in mathematics, if you think that a SEAD mission is the same or points-to a DEAD mission shortly after, or vice-versa, you are wrong. Or at least rl docs clearly define and state the differences and the specific objectives per mission, used weaponry, and wanted outcome……
I mean ‘not equal to’ …. SEAD is not equal to DEAD.
What ‘we’ normally do in BMS is DEAD … our goal isn’t ‘supression’, but ‘destruction’.
My point being that how we fly BMS isn’t necessarily the same as what country x flies in real life … we fly the missions and tactics the sim requires, even if/when we try to employ realistic procedures.
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Raptor, while your analyses is 100% accurate according to published information it is unlikely that the present SEAD capability in the IAF is less then that of 1982.
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I’m not sure who I’m addressing this post to…I assume Echo7 but seems he appears to agree with what I’m about to say, I’m not sure.
Anyway, I’ve been flying a bit in the Israel Theater and, like others, lamenting the absence of AGMs to tackle the SAM threat. I flew a SEAD flight last night, armed with nothing but CBU’s.
After dragging my crippled aircraft back to base without a kill, I started doing some research on this. I simply CANNOT BELIEVE that the IAF does not have standoff AGMs for SEAD. Not when in previous wars/conflicts they had them. Like Echo7 says above, it is unlikely the present SEAD capability in the IAF is less than that of 1982.
A google search turned up this short article detailing Israel seeking a $5 billion loan to purchase, among other weapons, AGM-88s to replace their AGM-78s: http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2013/07/01/Israel-seeks-5B-in-US-loans-to-buy-arms/UPI-49641372706630/
I also have a book here at home called, “Middle East Airpower in the 21st Century” by Tim Ripley, in which he indicates Israel’s Air-to-Ground weapons include: AGM-45A/B Shrike, AGM-45D Shrike, AGM-78A/B/CD Standard/Purple Fist, AGM-88 HARM.
Given all of these weapons, even if the IAF doesn’t have AGM-88s, they should have a stockpile of some of the others. Although I believe that if they had AGM-88s they wouldn’t have expended their entire inventory without knowing that more were on the way.
In short, I think you guys might have made an error in the weapons you’re allowing for the IAF in the theater. While I appreciate the challenge, there is no way the IAF has allowed the situation to develop such that they don’t have a reliable standoff anti-radiation missile…
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Technology has changed. You don’t need ARM to destroy SAMs. You only need an ELINT platform capable of triangulating Emitting radar. Then you just pass the coordinates to any standoff weapon available. For that matter, jdam, GBU-15s and similar weapons.
For the IAF, Shrike and StdARM are long gone. HARM are still far away. But make no mistake. That does not take away anything from DEAD/SEAD capability.
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- SPICE and Delilah which are not yet modeled in the sim.
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Technology has changed. You don’t need ARM to destroy SAMs. You only need an ELINT platform capable of triangulating Emitting radar. Then you just pass the coordinates to any standoff weapon available. For that matter, jdam, GBU-15s and similar weapons.
For the IAF, Shrike and StdARM are long gone. HARM are still far away. But make no mistake. That does not take away anything from DEAD/SEAD capability.
Did you read the article where Israel is seeking a 5 billion loan to buy AGM-88s? That was in summer 2013.
Do we have the capability in Falcon to have an ELINT platform triangulate the emitting radar and pass the coordinates to us so we can use JDAM or GBU-15?
There are a lot of real-world capabilities missing from Falcon, and other things modeled poorly. I wonder if not having the full capabilities of the IAF, coupled with “realistic” weapon loadouts doesn’t sort of miss the point. You’re not giving the player AGMs, but you’re also not giving the player the myriad ways the IAF has to do SEAD in lieu of those weapons.
Does that make sense?
