Two problems firing weapons
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Strange… I suggest you check your SST not working while loading the DX setup at the same time. Open any text editor and press all of the joystick buttons. Also, check your controller panel and see any DX buttons are not keeping depressed while releasing the trigger.
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I think you should focus on one aspect at a time. You’re using both the Saitek profiler and changing DX keymaps at the same time during your troubleshooting, so it makes it harder to isolate where the issue is. I suggest reverting back to the stock default BMS keyfile and starting a new Saitek profile that is empty and work on one issue at a time. Don’t delete what you already have, because if you correct the issue you can make some small changes and not to have do the entire profile over again.
With a clean slate, open Setup and in the advanced window press a button on the stick, whatever you intend to use for TMS-UP. Make sure the description/caption under the table actually shows that you pressed a button, even if it isn’t mapped to anything yet, it should still say Button 21 or Button 15 or whatever you press. Then go into the Saitek software and assign a key binding for the TMS-Up to the same button you tested before. Go back to the Setup page and verify it mapped correctly. Using the Saitek software to map it should now show the keypress and NOT say Button XX on the setup screen. If this part is working correctly, jump into a flight and test it out. If the problem persists, unload the Saitek profile all together (This is IMPORTANT for troubleshooting at this point), go back into BMS settings, and map the button using the normal procedures of clicking the callback, then pressing the button. Verify it shows correctly as a button being pressed and the callback in the setup screen. If all is working correctly, jump back into a flight and give it a try. If the problem persists at this point, then it is likely not a profile/software issue, it’s a controller or driver issue. If the problem is corrected, it’s probably a Saitek software issue (Which is my guess, I’ve never had anything but trouble with SST x64)
Your best bet to get it how you actually want it to be, is to do DirectX mapping via your keyfile. I saw previously you said it looked complex, but it is a much better solution IF you want to use the Shift Function to get extra commands from the available buttons If you don’t need the extra buttons, then unload your SST profile every time you want to fly, and you can just go through and use the BMS setup page to map your buttons how you want them. It is a tedious process to manually map everything in a text editor, but it isn’t really that complex to do basic mappings. There are plenty of explanations on the forums about how to do it and how it works, it really only takes a few minutes to look at it and figure out what you’re doing, but it can take time to manually find and map all the callbacks. Like I said, if you don’t use the Shift Function, you can easily do this all in Setup rather quickly. If I remember correctly, X65 registers itself with DirectX as two separate controllers, so there should not be any issues with having to adjust the Registry for extra axes or having more than 32 buttons.
Hope that helps a bit, let us know how it’s going. Personally, I think mixing/matching DX profiling and Vendor Mapping Software (SST in this case) is generally a terrible idea. I feel like the people who have published all the profiles with mix/match configurations are the result of people just being lazy and not wanting to take the time to do it fine-grain with DX mappings, so I would generally not trust a profile posted in the forums for anything more than guidance on which keys are mapped to which buttons if it includes the Vendor profile as part of the profile. But that’s just my opinion.
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Turns out my controller, internal key mapping and controller mapping are working just fine. The TMS Up/Down commands were not being held down long enough. The vids I watched, nor the BMS manuals mention holding the button down for a length of time.
-Pv- -
Turns out my controller, internal key mapping and controller mapping are working just fine. The TMS Up/Down commands were not being held down long enough. The vids I watched, nor the BMS manuals mention holding the button down for a length of time.
-Pv-I don’t hold them down longer than in any other use, for the two cents it’s worth.
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I never Hold down TMS/UP, DOWN to designate target… Did you mean DMS?
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TMS = Target Management Switch.
SimDesignate “Same as TMS up”
SimDropTrack “Same as TMS Down”I remember back in BMS 4.1 all I had to do was tap the TMS up and I had a bug track. Now I have to hold it down for about 1 second.
I can live with that though makes it tricky sometimes if the target is moving on the scope.Added:
BMS Key File Editor Manual
Section 7:11 Supported DX Devices (pg 38)Saitek X45, X52, X55, X52pro, X65 (my stick)
Bottom line: Everything is working now. I have no trouble mapping key commands with the Saitek software which is quite flexible and intuitive.
I only need to know what the sim expects and that takes some interpretation and experimenting. Although the DX mapping by editing the key files
is easy for those of you who are familiar with it, I’m just trying to get the sim up and running and if that means I do things the hard way which gets the results
in a few hours as opposed to text editing which might take days of broken key file editing, I’d rather spend more time flying.-Pv-
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TMS = Target Management Switch.
SimDesignate “Same as TMS up”
SimDropTrack “Same as TMS Down”I remember back in BMS 4.1 all I had to do was tap the TMS up and I had a bug track. Now I have to hold it down for about 1 second.
I can live with that though makes it tricky sometimes if the target is moving on the scope.Added:
BMS Key File Editor Manual
Section 7:11 Supported DX Devices (pg 38)Saitek X45, X52, X55, X52pro, X65 (my stick)
Bottom line: Everything is working now. I have no trouble mapping key commands with the Saitek software which is quite flexible and intuitive.
I only need to know what the sim expects and that takes some interpretation and experimenting. Although the DX mapping by editing the key files
is easy for those of you who are familiar with it, I’m just trying to get the sim up and running and if that means I do things the hard way which gets the results
in a few hours as opposed to text editing which might take days of broken key file editing, I’d rather spend more time flying.-Pv-
Sounds like you are using an old keyfile with unsupported key callbacks. Pretty sure those were not included with 4.32’s keyfile. I never used nor heard of BMS 4.1, so if that was an unreleased internal version (Im guessing not) then I couldnt comment on it.
FWIW, you should not need to hold the button to get TMS up to go up a track stage. There is a reason holding it is not mentioned - its only needed to hold it for certain operations, such as slaving it to the HMD FOV.
I will say from long experience with using the saitek software with an X-65F, you will save much time and a great deal of hair by avoiding using it wherever possible. A profile for the X-65F should contain only the throttle box buttons, the mode selector switch modifications, and the last two hats on the underside of the throttle grip. Everything else can be done in DX.
Using key bindings, you are going to end up with stuck modifier keys wreaking havoc. Using outdated callbacks, you are going to run into issues not seen frequently - I would hazard the guess that having to hold the TMS control down to get an effect, may be due to this.
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I’m using the full key file which came with the 4.33 distribution.
Of the six flight-style games I play regularly, F4 BMS is the only one I struggle to map each time The release a major change to the key file.
The last BMS I had installed was 4.12391 and it worked flawlessly as far as controller commands.
-Pv- -
I’m using the full key file which came with the 4.33 distribution.
Of the six flight-style games I play regularly, F4 BMS is the only one I struggle to map each time The release a major change to the key file.
The last BMS I had installed was 4.12391 and it worked flawlessly as far as controller commands.
-Pv-Right, well the file marked with version 4.12391 is known to the community as 4.32.
SimDesignate is not included in the full key file which came with the 4.33 version, nor the 4.33U1 version. SimTMSUp is included, however. SimDesignate is a legacy callback which is not included in valid keyfiles that come with BMS.
The use of legacy unsupported callbacks is quite likely where your issue stems from, and you would be better off eliminating them by testing with a default keyfile, and seeing if the issues persist.
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I’m using the “default” unmodified “full” key file which came with the distribution. I think I’ve repeated that three times now.
The description I referred is what is shown in the documents file: BMS Keystrokes - Defaults.pdfWhen I press the controller buttons on the hatswitch the game controller UI mapper responds correctly sending the documented shift home, end, pgup, pgdn commands.
The only anomaly is unlike all the other controller presses used so far (which respond instantly) I have to hold the hatswitch down for 1+ second before the mapper UI responds.
Any attempt at DX mapping I’ve tried has failed. At this point, I’d rather play the game than edit key files. The documentation in support of hand editing is too confusing.
I realize there are those of you who have become quite comfortable with it. In three days of working with it, it’s just not where I want to spend my time.
-Pv- -
Try not to get frustrated, Pv. You’re experiencing The Falcon Dance. Mine lasted 2 weeks!
Anyway, I have a -65 , as well, and have experienced some on the same things.
I know you’ve said you’re using a current keyfile, but the SimDesignate point does indicate some issue in that area. If I were you, I’d be looking for a possible culprit. I use the 4.33"BMS-Full" keyfile, modified as below. The 4.32 keyfile is different, some callbacks changed in 4.33.
That being the case, when I got started I had problems with getting some of the TMS’s and DMS’s to work. I tried DX assignment and everything else. What solved it for me was to assign the callbacks to a single key command( IE: home instead of shirt + home,etc.). IMHO, Saitek is fussy with combo commands for certain things like TMS. I have changed my TMS,DMS,CMS, and NWS/miss. to single key commands . They all work for me
I’d have to look at how my trigger is mapped(I’m not home). I never had trouble with it, as long as my "switchology is correct and I have selected cannon properly Meaning, certain things have to be done before the cannon will fire, even if HOTAS is set up.
If you are in Dogfight mode, and hit NWS/Miss., do you get cannon symbology? Does it fire? Btw, you want to use the “second cannon detent” command.I’m going to assume Master Arm is armed and the other switchology is set. -
Did you import your user folder when you switched from 4.32 to 4.33? If you copy/pasted the folder then the old keyfile would persist, which is why the documentation says to only copy certain files pertaining to your logbook. The Designate command you mention is deprecated and shouldn’t be used as far as I know. It will work for the FCR, but I’m guessing you are not getting the other functions you would normally use TMS Up for such as marking points. The same applies to TMS Down, which can be used for more than just releasing the bug on a target. That’s my guess however, in reality it may be the same callback being used underneath in the code, just with a different (more accurate) name. That’s for someone on the BMS team to clarify.
If you want the quick and dirty on manually doing DX settings, for basic functions, you can do the following:
Go into the setup screen and assign a function to the Trigger, First Detent (Usually Button 1 in BMS and 0 in DX); Save the keyfile
Open the keyfile in Notepad
Find the area at the bottom that says DirectX - It will have the callback and some numbers such as: SimTriggerFirstDetent 0 -1 -2 0 0x0 0
The green portion will be replaced with whatever callback you are trying to map, the easiest way to do this is Ctrl-F for the callback, and copy/paste it. The callbacks are the lines in the top of the file, you only want the first portion, so everything up to the first SPACE (SimTMSUp, SimWheelBreaks, etc…)
The red portion is the button number AS DIRECT X SEES IT - You can find these by pressing the button in BMS Setup page and subtracting 1 (Because Direct X is 0-31 not 1-32)
The blue portion can just be copy/pasted to every line for the basic setup you are going for initially, you can do some advanced stuff with the first part of it, but not needed at this pointThere really isn’t much to it, the documentation can be a little technical, but that is the short and skinny version for basic DX functionality programming.
Do that for all 0-31 buttons and you’re done. If you want to be able to shift the Buttons so they all have 2x functionality it is a little more work. But basically you add the following lines:
SimHotasPinkyShift 5 -1 -2 0 0x0 0
SimHotasPinkyShift 261 -1 -2 0 0x0 0and replace 5/261 with the appropriate number for the button you are using. This would be in place of the line you would normally assign to the button you are using as a shift, not in addition to. 5 is typically the pinkie paddle on most Saitek devices. This allows you to use each button for two functions by adding 256 to the red number you used in your regular mapping, then you activate the “Shifted” function by holding the button you are using as a “Shifter” (The pinkie paddle in this example), while you press the mapped button. There are very detailed explanations in the forums about how to do that and how it works.
The end result would look something like the following (With the … replaced by a line for each 0-31 and 256-287)–Callbacks listed below are just off the top of my head as examples, not sure if they are the right ones
SimTriggerFirstDetent 0 -1 -2 0 0x0 0
SimTriggerSecondDetent 1 -1 -2 0 0x0 0
…
SimHotasPinkyShift 5 -1 -2 0 0x0 0
…
SimAFWheelBrakes 256 -1 -2 0 0x0 0
SimParkingBrake 257 -1 -2 0 0x0 0
…
SimHotasPinkyShift 261 -1 -2 0 0x0 0
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As reported several messages ago, everything is working. Locking/unlock targets with TMS Up/Dwn is stable after editing the controller mapper software commands more carefully to remove recorded timing.
The cannon fire continuous was solved by adding the “/” key to the release of the controller trigger.
The pickle/fire missile/bomb was solved by holding it down longer.Note: I’m really not new to F4 and have played it since it was released. My primary problem here is after playing BMS 4.32 for a long time, then leaving, installing 4.33 new just now, all my controller mappings which worked flawlessly in 4.32 now no longer worked requiring me to remap them. Some of the commands do not work the way they did in the past (I never had to program in a “y” stop key for the cursor for instance. until now.) I never had to deal with a 1st/2nd trigger system until now. Since I’m also a DCS Warthog player, I can assure you I’m comfortable with complex cockpits and complex key mapping. I’m not comfortable with major changes to the mapping of a product which has been in production for so many years. Frankly, I would rather play than edit text files.
Drtbkg,
" I use the 4.33"BMS-Full" keyfile"
So do I. Have been since the start.“certain things have to be done before the cannon will fire, even if HOTAS is set up.
If you are in Dogfight mode, and hit NWS/Miss., do you get cannon symbology? Does it fire? Btw, you want to use the “second cannon detent” command.”“What solved it for me was to assign the callbacks to a single key command( IE: home instead of shirt + home,etc.). "
Combos are working for me as long as I create them with Advanced mode and remove the timing the macro records and set all the times to 0.0 and remove the duplicates.”What solved it for me was the actions mentioned at the top of this reply.
MorteSil,
Thanks for the quick and dirty DX programming.“Did you import your user folder when you switched from 4.32 to 4.33?”
No. I installed 4.33 from scratch using the default files. I only imported my pilot log." The Designate command you mention is deprecated and shouldn’t be used as far as I know."
As far as I know, I’m not specifically calling it. I only responded to a user who mentioned he uses DMS to bug a target while I’m using TMS.As I reported earlier, TMS is working fine in the HSD MFD without the need to hold down the hat switches (they are instant there.) TMS is also working fine in the FCR MFD for bugging/releasing targets.
I have to hold down the button for a short while. All of my other button commands are instant.As reported several messages back, everything I requested help on in the first message of this thread is working as expected.
-Pv- -
I remember back in BMS 4.1 all I had to do was tap the TMS up and I had a bug track. Now I have to hold it down for about 1 second.
Still does. No need to hold it up.
BMS Key File Editor Manual
Section 7:11 Supported DX Devices (pg 38)Saitek X45, X52, X55, X52pro, X65 (my stick)
Yes, your stick is supported, but that does not mean “right out of the box with no input from the user.”
I’m just trying to get the sim up and running and if that means I do things the hard way which gets the results
in a few hours as opposed to text editing which might take days of broken key file editing, I’d rather spend more time flying..key file editing is a skill that’s very useful to learn, especially when you’re using a controller that isn’t very common. Even with my Warthog, I’ve edited my .tmc files and .key files so that the function suits my preferences.
I’m using the full key file which came with the 4.33 distribution.
Of the six flight-style games I play regularly, F4 BMS is the only one I struggle to map each time The release a major change to the key file.I only needed to update my .key file from when we went from 4.32 to 4.33, and it was due to the addition of new callbacks. Your refusal to understand the inner workings of the .key file only contributes to your struggle. If you think the .key files are bad now, you should’ve seen them before Kolbe stepped in!
I’m using the “default” unmodified “full” key file which came with the distribution. I think I’ve repeated that three times now.
The description I referred is what is shown in the documents file: BMS Keystrokes - Defaults.pdfFor someone who is claiming 20 years experience with the sim, I can’t understand what’s with the arrogance especially when paired with the ignorance of calling 4.32 as “BMS 4.1” and lack of knowledge in editing .key files. You may have repeated yourself three times now, but you’ve only really said “thanks” once. If you’ve had 20 years’ experience in simulations, how long have you had experience with dealing with people in the simming community?
Any attempt at DX mapping I’ve tried has failed. At this point, I’d rather play the game than edit key files. The documentation in support of hand editing is too confusing.
I realize there are those of you who have become quite comfortable with it. In three days of working with it, it’s just not where I want to spend my time.How you spend your time is up to you. However, I imagine it will be quite frustrating to play the sim when things don’t work as you expect them to do. If you’re not capable of editing the .key file, how exactly are you doing your DX mapping? If you don’t want to spend the time to understand how your controller interacts with the sim, how do you expect to play the game?
For those of us who have become “quite comfortable with it,” don’t you think there’s a reason why we’ve come to that stage? Do you think we play BMS just to edit .key files and write confusing documentation?
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As reported several messages ago, everything is working. Locking/unlock targets with TMS Up/Dwn is stable after editing the controller mapper software commands more carefully to remove recorded timing.
The cannon fire continuous was solved by adding the “/” key to the release of the controller trigger.
The pickle/fire missile/bomb was solved by holding it down longer.As mentioned earlier, it’s best to map these things directly via DX. Even when working with a controller software, it’s best to do things by hand as you’ve realized because the GUI may be adding stuff in the code you don’t want.
Note: I’m really not new to F4 and have played it since it was released. My primary problem here is after playing BMS 4.32 for a long time, then leaving, installing 4.33 new just now, all my controller mappings which worked flawlessly in 4.32 now no longer worked requiring me to remap them.
But BMS 4.33 is not the same beast as Falcon 4. The tactics you’ve learned in F4 may still be valid, but as far as controllers go and key bindings, they’ve come a very long way. 4.32 won’t even play nice with 4.33, so I’m confused why you keep on harping your “old” F4 experience. You’ve never had to deal with TrackIR in Falcon 4, but no complaints there, eh?
Since I’m also a DCS Warthog player, I can assure you I’m comfortable with complex cockpits and complex key mapping. I’m not comfortable with major changes to the mapping of a product which has been in production for so many years. Frankly, I would rather play than edit text files.
You may not have been playing DCS A10C for very long then, as it used to take me at least 2 days to make sure my controllers and snap views ported over correctly with EACH PATCH. As for mapping of a product…. way to go to show your appreciation for the FREE work that BMS devs do.
MorteSil,
Thanks for the quick and dirty DX programming.Two instances of “thanks” now.
As reported several messages back, everything I requested help on in the first message of this thread is working as expected.
-Pv-Good to know you’re sorted now.
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Ice, I think there is a case of arrogance indeed, but the trolling side seems involuntary to me. Would you follow me if I proposed to leave all of it behind us? I trust the mods have other things to do, but if any sorting is needed, they’d do it. Your point was made, I made mine elsewhere for similar reasons, I think it’s a matter of time from now on.
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Yes, I Always Designate with A DMS…Ho-Ho-Ho
You guys don’t!?EDIT: I should have told an intention of my question more specifically, sorry…
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I’m using the “default” unmodified “full” key file which came with the distribution. I think I’ve repeated that three times now.
The description I referred is what is shown in the documents file: BMS Keystrokes - Defaults.pdfNo, you arent. That file does not contain the callback you described. So you have modified it since downloading it, because it doesnt come like that.
Ergo, you will have to redownload the whole BMS, and reinstall the lot of it. Have patience! The end result is worth it!
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I think he is just using stock 4.33 keyfile, but also describing his situation showing old callbacks as an example. Just for an example.
No need to say “Do my way!”.If any problem is happened next time, uploading the current loading key file might avoid confusion.
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There are no problems. Controller and aircraft control is working fine. My personal expectations are satisfied.
-Pv-