Help appreciated on SLAM and LJDAM implementtion

[drtbkj]

Good Day,All.
RTFM’ing is not helping me here, so I would appreciate some help…
1)In a recent mission I was faced with A SA-4/6/10 SAM nest, so I decided to employ the SLAM(not the ER). My thought was to use them as Super Mavericks. So, with 4 targets I took 4 shots, for zero hits. Master Arm was armed, I had radar and/or TBP looks on all 4, was within range and launch parameters, and the fuse was armed.
Not a happy camper.
So to test the SLAM, I carried it on a TASMO. Once again, I had radar/TGP lock. Looking at the SLAM weapon page, I could see and slew toward the target, but TMS would not lock it up.
Clearly I’m missing a step here, but have no idea what.
2) On the same TASMO mission, I had some GBU-54’s and a TGP. Once again, I had valid locks, laser was armed(and got the flashing L indicator), in launch parameters and in range.The lasar was set to combat, and I reset the time to 16 seconds.I tried 3 times and all 3 impacted behind the target. One the 4 fourth I did get a hit, but that was by essentially dive bombing the target.
The only possible factor I could think of on the 3 misses was that I was at 15-20k and at fairly close range. Could I have been out of “endgame parameters”? I should point out that against stationary targets the -54 works functions properly
I would like to implement the weapons, especially SLAM, so your help is appreciated.

[I-Hawk]

Hi,

1. SLAM is a Man In The Loop weapon, so you will have the read the MITL section in the 3-4 manual and do some practice before you get sharp with it and go chase SA-10s. I advice you to try first on easy stationary targets and then later move to moving targets.

2. LJDAMs has 2 CTRL pages in the SMS, in order to hit with the laser you will have to switch to the 2nd CTRL page and switch the laser receiver mode to AFTER mode instead of OFF. The default mode is OFF and means the LJDAM will act as a usual JDAM, only in AFTER mode it’ll react to laser spots. Also pay attention that the setting is per each bomb, so it’s not enough to change once, for every bomb you drop you will need to change the mode.

[drtbkj]

@I-Hawk:

Hi,

1. SLAM is a Man In The Loop weapon, so you will have the read the MITL section in the 3-4 manual and do some practice before you get sharp with it and go chase SA-10s. I advice you to try first on easy stationary targets and then later move to moving targets.

2. LJDAMs has 2 CTRL pages in the SMS, in order to hit with the laser you will have to switch to the 2nd CTRL page and switch the laser receiver mode to AFTER mode instead of OFF. The default mode is OFF and means the LJDAM will act as a usual JDAM, only in AFTER mode it’ll react to laser spots. Also pay attention that the setting is per each bomb, so it’s not enough to change once, for every bomb you drop you will need to change the mode.

Thanks, I-Hawk. We may both be right on SLAM. the H/K model is exactly as you describe. BTW, Tacref has the H model description in the E model entry. The E does have data link capability, at least according to Wikipedia. However, our Dash-34 does say that if you put the wpn auropilot on it will guide to what was the SPI at launch. In sim, I launched an E ,with pod carried, got “no signal” on the wpn page, but the missile did hit the target. I’m still testing this, but I and AI wingie have gotten hits, even with no pod carried.
As for gbu-54, thanks for the tip!

[starrats]

hello drtbkj,
you can use AN/AWW9 pod to direct it to the target with a few stages of flight. you can launch it, turn the remote control cone to point behind you and direct agm to target with its own camera while you are flying away. very fun to use.

[drtbkj]

@starrats:

hello drtbkj,
you can use AN/AWW9 pod to direct it to the target with a few stages of flight. you can launch it, turn the remote control cone to point behind you and direct agm to target with its own camera while you are flying away. very fun to use.

Hi, Starrats. Once again, you are completely right with the H/K (the ER). However with the E model I was flying directly toward the target with Aft antenna deselected, and “lost signal” as soon as it launched. I had the SLAM LOS “looking” at the tgt. I did try selecting aft antenna after launch but still did not get a signal. However, if aft antenna is not selected shouldn’t you be able to control it from the forward quarter? I’m going to do further experiments, both to document hits without the pod ,our aft antenna scenario, and to compare and contrast the E and the H/K within BMS.
My supposition is that on the E the Dash-34 is right about the autopilot on function, the AWW-9 may not work with the E, and that on moving targets it won’t hit, just like LJDAM without laser.

[starrats]

The E model is what i meant, from F18 or AV8. I control from forward position too when against non threatening targets. the thing i noticed is, once you check HSD and make sure your cone is pointing where you want(forward in this case), you really gotta give the missile some time to get below and in front. but you mentioned multiple launch. I tried that before and had some problems switching between released weapons sometimes lost my signal from one or both. when I only launch one at a time I usually dont have an issue. I usually put it to terminal pretty fast when flying too target and guide it all the way. Im pretty sure The E model wont lock onto a moving target, you have to chase it with the remote control. Sorry not much help here , I never have hit a target with no remote signal and tv view.

[Fox3TwoShip]

@I-Hawk:

Hi,

2. LJDAMs has 2 CTRL pages in the SMS, in order to hit with the laser you will have to switch to the 2nd CTRL page and switch the laser receiver mode to AFTER mode instead of OFF. The default mode is OFF and means the LJDAM will act as a usual JDAM, only in AFTER mode it’ll react to laser spots. Also pay attention that the setting is per each bomb, so it’s not enough to change once, for every bomb you drop you will need to change the mode.

To add to this (and I need to double-check the -34), but this is only available if you employ it as UAI (which we never do). Real world we load them as GBU-38s so you do not have these options.

[Tomcat84]

Some countries that don’t have BRU-57s and can only load single 500 pounders on station 3 and 7 do use the UAI option on either the 54 or the 49 (dual mode GBU-12, not modeled in BMS) and do use this setting.

[Fox3TwoShip]

@Tomcat84:

Some countries that don’t have BRU-57s and can only load single 500 pounders on station 3 and 7 do use the UAI option on either the 54 or the 49 (dual mode GBU-12, not modeled in BMS) and do use this setting.

Yes, should have stated USAF-dependent.

[drtbkj]

Today I tested the E model without the pod. The first seemed to orbit the target, without doing the terminal dive. On the second I went to control page 2 on the wpn page and set the cruise alt to zero. It looked to be guiding on the tgt, designated via radar before launch, with fuse armed and autopilot on, but hit short.
And so, the experiment to see if the SLAM (E) can be used as a Super Maverick" continues

[Stevie]

…er…no.

[drtbkj]

@Stevie:

…er…no.

Care to elaborate, Stevie? I’m still not completely clear if the E model is modeled as a purely Man in the Loop wpn. I know it has GPS guidance, and as Wikipedia says, data link capability. The Dash-34 says that if the wpn’s auto pilot is engaged, then it will guide to what the SPI is at time of launch. Admittedly, my experience in BMS has muddied the water a bit. I’ve launched several E’s (the model I’ve been experimenting with) with the AWW-9 pod and immediately “lost signal” upon launch, never to regain it. Also,I have seen E’s hitting targets without a pod even being on the a/c, both myself and AI wingie.
I think this evening I’ll load the AI wingman up with 4 E’s and no pod, give him/her some “attack my targets”, and see what happens.

[Stevie]

@drtbkj:

Care to elaborate, Stevie? I’m still not completely clear if the E model is modeled as a purely Man in the Loop wpn. I know it has GPS guidance, and as Wikipedia says, data link capability. The Dash-34 says that if the wpn’s auto pilot is engaged, then it will guide to what the SPI is at time of launch. Admittedly, my experience in BMS has muddied the water a bit. I’ve launched several E’s (the model I’ve been experimenting with) with the AWW-9 pod and immediately “lost signal” upon launch, never to regain it. Also,I have seen E’s hitting targets without a pod even being on the a/c, both myself and AI wingie.
I think this evening I’ll load the AI wingman up with 4 E’s and no pod, give him/her some “attack my targets”, and see what happens.

All SLAM variants are (er…should be…) MITL. I don’t know how BMS models, but in RL somebody in the flight is required to have a have a DL pod…so if you are solo, that’s you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-84E_Standoff_Land_Attack_Missile

…and - (scroll down) -

http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Harpoon.html

[I-Hawk]

@drtbkj:

Care to elaborate, Stevie? I’m still not completely clear if the E model is modeled as a purely Man in the Loop wpn. I know it has GPS guidance, and as Wikipedia says, data link capability. The Dash-34 says that if the wpn’s auto pilot is engaged, then it will guide to what the SPI is at time of launch. Admittedly, my experience in BMS has muddied the water a bit. I’ve launched several E’s (the model I’ve been experimenting with) with the AWW-9 pod and immediately “lost signal” upon launch, never to regain it. Also,I have seen E’s hitting targets without a pod even being on the a/c, both myself and AI wingie.
I think this evening I’ll load the AI wingman up with 4 E’s and no pod, give him/her some “attack my targets”, and see what happens.

As I stated up there, the SLAM is a MITL weapon in BMS and you will need a pod to guide it. The AI is a different story as the code doesn’t REQUIRES the AI to carry a pod in order to guide the missile, i.e the missile is guiding itself to target and the AI is running some MITL style flight path to simulate guiding the missile.

Now, regarding loading your AI wingman with a pod, it’s only depend on you, question is what you seek to do in this sim, if you want to fly arcade then sure go a head and deny the pod, but if you want to simulate reality then you will have your wingman fly with a pod (even if you know, because I just told you, that it’s not really using it). During campaign missions, the ATO will load AIs with data link pods when they are loaded with MITL weapons (to each weapon the ATO will load the expected pod). And BTW, there is code in place that should assure that the AI AC isn’t destroyed before the missile hits, in case it does then the missile will hit nothing.

Regarding weapon’s ability to hit a target without any help from the operator. In case you have a weapon of Generation 3/4, then if you put it into Terminal stage and engage the AP, in this case the missile will independently hit the SPI target.

So to sum it up, MITL weapons should be mainly deployed against high priority moving targets (e.g SA-17 battery) or long range high priority targets (e.g SA-10 or Patriot FCR). Of course you can use them also to hit anything else, it’s your decision what to do with them, so in case that target is stationary, then yes you can use a generation 3/4 weapon to be a “Super Maverick” if you like, but you can’t lock up moving targets and keep the weapon on them automatically, for moving targets you will have to guide the missile manually.

[drtbkj]

@I-Hawk:

As I stated up there, the SLAM is a MITL weapon in BMS and you will need a pod to guide it. The AI is a different story as the code doesn’t REQUIRES the AI to carry a pod in order to guide the missile, i.e the missile is guiding itself to target and the AI is running some MITL style flight path to simulate guiding the missile.

Now, regarding loading your AI wingman with a pod, it’s only depend on you, question is what you seek to do in this sim, if you want to fly arcade then sure go a head and deny the pod, but if you want to simulate reality then you will have your wingman fly with a pod (even if you know, because I just told you, that it’s not really using it). During campaign missions, the ATO will load AIs with data link pods when they are loaded with MITL weapons (to each weapon the ATO will load the expected pod). And BTW, there is code in place that should assure that the AI AC isn’t destroyed before the missile hits, in case it does then the missile will hit nothing.

Regarding weapon’s ability to hit a target without any help from the operator. In case you have a weapon of Generation 3/4, then if you put it into Terminal stage and engage the AP, in this case the missile will independently hit the SPI target.

So to sum it up, MITL weapons should be mainly deployed against high priority moving targets (e.g SA-17 battery) or long range high priority targets (e.g SA-10 or Patriot FCR). Of course you can use them also to hit anything else, it’s your decision what to do with them, so in case that target is stationary, then yes you can use a generation 3/4 weapon to be a “Super Maverick” if you like, but you can’t lock up moving targets and keep the weapon on them automatically, for moving targets you will have to guide the missile manually.

Thanks for the reply, I-Hawk, it cleared up quite a bit( especially the AI part). One question: where you write “put into terminal and engage autopilot”, how do you put it in terminal? Pushing that osb prelaunch does not change it. Are you perhaps saying IF you have a pod and are guiding, once it reaches terminal phase engage autopilot?

[I-Hawk]

Yes of course you need the data link pod.

[scar3tactics]

@Fox3TwoShip:

To add to this (and I need to double-check the -34), but this is only available if you employ it as UAI (which we never do). Real world we load them as GBU-38s so you do not have these options.

Interesting. Does this mean they always have laser receiver on or is there some other way to control that?

Also, do LJDAMs use the autolase setting from the DED or do you have to manually laze for them?

[drtbkj]

@scar3tactics:

Interesting. Does this mean they always have laser receiver on or is there some other way to control that?

Also, do LJDAMs use the autolase setting from the DED or do you have to manually laze for them?

Scar, this is from Dash-34
“Laser JDAM can be released to fly independently to the target like a JDAM, or guide to any stationary or moving target by tracking a laser spot like a Laser Guided Bomb. Laser JDAM does not require continuous lasing if the target is stationary, because unlike LGBs LJDAM extracts coordinates from the laser spot position, so even lasing for a few moments will cause the bomb to change target towards the laser spot position and it will keep heading towards the updated position without the need to lase continuously.”
Also,the laser receiver setting on control page two has to be set to after. What this does is set the receiver to activate after launch. If not set to after for each weapon, it will act as a straight JDAM. That is also from Dash-34

[scar3tactics]

Yeah I saw that in the -34 for how they’re implemented in BMS. Unfortunately that doesn’t say if they use the autolase setting or require manual lasing. And my other question was directed at Fox3, since he seemed to suggest that real world implementation is different, and I was curious how the real GBU-54 works in relation to its laser receiver

(I know I could test this easily, but I’m at work)

[drtbkj]

@scar3tactics:

Yeah I saw that in the -34 for how they’re implemented in BMS. Unfortunately that doesn’t say if they use the autolase setting or require manual lasing. And my other question was directed at Fox3, since he seemed to suggest that real world implementation is different, and I was curious how the real GBU-54 works in relation to its laser receiver

(I know I could test this easily, but I’m at work)

Scar, Me, too( at work) .While I’ve been more focused on the SLAM experiment I did try LJDAM once a couple of weeks ago. If memory serves, I did autolase. I believe the only setting changes I made was to reset the laser timer to 16 seconds, and of course laser to Combat…