FCR air-to-ground sighting options
-
BMS1-F16CM-34-1-1
Sighting Options
p.27And real world:
MLU_M1
SECTION 5 AIR-TO-GROUND RADAR
p.153Both provide about the same scope.
Thanks @supanova I thought for sure that would be in the -1, oh well. Now I understand @Fox3TwoShip’s comments a lot more. This is all well and good but why not just put in the GPS coordinates as STPT if you know the target is 865 meters and bearing 260 from the specified target – certainly HQ and AWACs has that ability ready to go? I think you’d only need it if you were taking direction directly from say some GI that doesn’t have GPS equipment available. But if that GI was giving this information and it made it’s way through to you by AWACS you’d think you would get the GPS coordinates as well from them. So probably very rarely would real pilots need to do this. But that being said, it’s pretty cool stuff and I am glad it’s included!
-
Let me see if I understand VIPs and VRPs.
The VIP sighting mode also allows for an unknown target position to be referenced from a known position (steer point) during a mission.
The VIP is the target. VIP bearing and range is relative to the steerpoint, PUP bearing and range is relative to the VIP.
Visual reference point (VRP) sighting mode is used in preplanned submodes to plot a reference point on the HUD as a true bearing and range from the target. This allows the utilization of a known, visually identifiable position, or RP point, to initiate an attack.
The steerpoint is the target. VRP bearing and range is relative to the steerpoint, PUP bearing and range is also relative to the steerpoint.
I think the idea is that you use VIPs when the target is hard to identify, and the steerpoint is a visual reference, and vice versa with VRPs.
That being said, wouldn’t it be better to use a VRP as visual reference, rather than OAs?
-
With regard to Offset Aimpoints:
The problem appears to be that the implementation in BMS isn’t accurate and the offsets are treated as the target itself.
With that in mind, I’m not clear how OAs are used in BMS without compromising the attack.
Well I was unable to tell from the documentation for sure so I made a TE to test it.
It seems you can rotary TMS right or OSB10 through STPT, OA1, OA2 and VIP or VRP (if you have set them) and that’s what the bomb drop cue, TGP, and-or guided weapon will be tied to. I think Adam and Frederf are saying that’s not the way it is in real life? Frederf’s example of the orphanage, if I understand him correctly, is that you would use the OA to designate areas where you definitely don’t want your bombs to go. I can see it being used for that, but I can also see it being used the other way and actually think it’s useful.
So I get a call from a ground FAC and his GPS is down for whatever reason, even lost his handy dandy printed map, and maybe he’s even got other triangulation tools at his disposal and so he says, “There is a T80 900 feet bearing 082 from the center of X Bridge burrowed into the sand.” I tally the bridge and make it a mark point, now I plug in the info I got from the FAC into a VIP or OAP and I now have a really good spot to ground stabilize my TGP and hunt for this tank. Or if there’s urgency or danger there I might just attack that spot with a standoff weapon. Anyway, I think it makes a lot of sense in terms of a backup plan if you think about how the military should have a backup plan for the backup plan and every possible contingency covered (so long as they have the funds to cover it). And yet, in real life in since 2000 or even earlier that probably just hasn’t happened and why @Fox3TwoShip contemplates why we are stuck in the 90s (probably early 90s). This stuff is just not used anymore.
Anyway, I agree that I am not going to be using this stuff very often because if you get an AWACS or FAC(A) call it’s going to give me the coords. I think you might want to use offsets for HUD visual clues in bad weather and maybe switch to CCIP at the last moment, or even good for getting the line up for a column or bridge or runway when the TGP isn’t going to get it done (i.e. terrain masked, bad weather). So I do see it being useful, just not very often and especially not in real life where I think the flying is much more conservative bc putting a pilot at undue risk in real life is just plain stupid, but this is a game so we can have fun with this stuff as much as we like.
-
I think the idea is that you use VIPs when the target is hard to identify, and the steerpoint is a visual reference, and vice versa with VRPs.
That being said, wouldn’t it be better to use a VRP as visual reference, rather than OAs?
I love yakking and learning about this stuff! LOL. I don’t think necessarily that for VIP the steerpoint has to be an easily spotted visual reference but that would definitely be preferred I would think. And yeah, if I follow you, I think the idea is to use the VRP to set up an IP after wheels up. Having all three types OAs and VRPs and VIPs all make sense to me because you get additional symbology. So, I can use VRP to set up an impromptu IP and use OAs to designate the near and far end of a runway and I am going to have all those cues on my HUD for SA purposes.
-
@Frederf typo as to bearing?
900 = 090.0° Bearings are in true (not magnetic). I think the DED says “TBRG” instead of “BRG” to emphasize true vs. magnetic.
You can use OAP for original purpose the difference is you have to return to TGT reference before weapon release.
You must not call them “GPS coordinates” but “geographic coordinates.” GPS is a tool, not a coordinate system. And like any tool it can be taken away. Your GPS is jammed and INS drifts. You might know a relative position but not an absolute one.
-
if I understand him correctly, is that you would use the OA to designate areas where you definitely don’t want your bombs to go.
You would use an Offset Aimpoint if the target had a poor radar return. The OA would then be placed on a stronger return. The FCR would reference the stronger radar return and use the offset to have a solid picture of where the target was.
But it appears in BMS the OA becomes the target, hence it is less useful than it should be.
-
Are there any issues with VIP and VRP implementation?
-
I don’t understand Pull-Up Point.
For example, I can understand it as a visual cue when set with VIP, but what does the option to mode select it do?
-
You would use an Offset Aimpoint if the target had a poor radar return. The OA would then be placed on a stronger return. The FCR would reference the stronger radar return and use the offset to have a solid picture of where the target was.
But it appears in BMS the OA becomes the target, hence it is less useful than it should be.
Gosh I just don’t get it. This is fun but I must have a mental block here.
When I tested the sighting options, I set 2 OAs and 1 VIP. First pass, I dropped on the target. Second pass, I dropped on OA1. Third pass, I dropped on OA2. Fourth pass, I dropped on VIP. Unless I did something goofy or misremember that test, as far as I can tell “OA becomes the target” in BMS only when you TMS Right or OSB10 to it. So I think it’s more accurate to say that in BMS the OA can become the target?
I must be missing something and I am blaming myself here. Sorry for me being dense about this but I think I am going to need this illustrated for it to click in my head.
The procedure that you outline – in my head anyway – goes like this.
1. You somehow know where the target is to the point you can create a steerpoint for it (else you couldn’t create an OA) but you can’t get a strong radar return at that steerpoint;
2. So you create an OA on top of the stronger return;
3. Then you reference back to the original point you started with and drop the bomb on the original point;
4. But BMS appears to be implemented wrong and you could accidentally drop on the OA.Well, I don’t think that’s what’s being said but for some reason that’s how I am interpreting it. And my solution to that scenario would just be to drop on the original steerpoint. Why would I want to create a steerppoint, go 500 feet due West where there is a better radar return, plot an OA, then drop the bomb 500 due East of the OA? Well yeah, that does seem pretty useless to me when I had the target steerpoint to begin with.
Can you walk through an example of how you see this is supposed to work? Maybe then I can see what I am missing.
AFAIK you have to have a steerpoint to create an OA off of it, so once you have the steerpoint of the target – regardless of how it is created – the idea of having an OA to get back to the target is giving me brain damage.
I am inclined to think that the purpose of the OA is actually the opposite. You have a steerpoint but its NOT your target (or not your only target) (for whatever reason i.e. you can’t get a radar lock on the target and you don’t have a TGP or weather or terrain masking), therefore use an OA to point your weapons to the OA.
-
Supanova is pretty much correct. The idea of Offset Aimpoints is from a different era.
- Imagine you have no GPS
- Imagine you have no targeting pod
- Imagine the weather is undercast or the target is really hard to find visually and you want to bomb from medium level or something and it’s also hard to find on radar
- Imagine you have an old INS that has a high drift rate so it becomes too inaccurate while you are inbound.
So yes, you might know what the coordinate of the target is, and these days you’d just drop a JDAM, but in those days you have no way to accurately find the target cause even though you punch in the coordinates, your INS isn’t accurate enough so it might drift off.
So you have a problem. But, you do happen to know that there is a very distinctive radar feature nearby (for example, a tip of land that points into the sea or something) and you know the exact location of that as well. You define your offset aimpoint because you know how far this land feature is away from your target coordinate.
As you get close to the target you bring up your radar, your OA and look at the radar. If it is showing smack on the land feature, you know your INS hasn’t drifted that much and you’re OK, so you switch back to and drop on your original target (not the OA).
If the OA is showing offset from the recognizable radar feature, you know your INS has drifted so you bring a slew into your system to line up the OA with what you see on your radar. This same slew will be applied to target and will bring your solution to on target. So now you again drop on the target, with the slew in the system.
And then if the stars line up and you can actually discern something from the POS radar then your old school string of MK82s will hopefully hit somewhere close enough to the target to do some kind of damage.
So yeah, it’s an 80s/90s thing that doesn’t make sense in today’s environment. And good luck avoiding collateral damage too btw
-
Supanova is pretty much correct. The idea of Offset Aimpoints is from a different era.
- Imagine you have no GPS
- Imagine you have no targeting pod
- Imagine the weather is undercast or the target is really hard to find visually and you want to bomb from medium level or something and it’s also hard to find on radar
- Imagine you have an old INS that has a high drift rate so it becomes too inaccurate while you are inbound.
So yes, you might know what the coordinate of the target is, and these days you’d just drop a JDAM, but in those days you have no way to accurately find the target cause even though you punch in the coordinates, your INS isn’t accurate enough so it might drift off.
So you have a problem. But, you do happen to know that there is a very distinctive radar feature nearby (for example, a tip of land that points into the sea or something) and you know the exact location of that as well. You define your offset aimpoint because you know how far this land feature is away from your target coordinate.
As you get close to the target you bring up your radar, your OA and look at the radar. If it is showing smack on the land feature, you know your INS hasn’t drifted that much and you’re OK, so you switch back to and drop on your original target (not the OA).
If the OA is showing offset from the recognizable radar feature, you know your INS has drifted so you bring a slew into your system to line up the OA with what you see on your radar. This same slew will be applied to target and will bring your solution to on target. So now you again drop on the target, with the slew in the system.
And then if the stars line up and you can actually discern something from the POS radar then your old school string of MK82s will hopefully hit somewhere close enough to the target to do some kind of damage.
So yeah, it’s an 80s/90s thing that doesn’t make sense in today’s environment. And good luck avoiding collateral damage too btw
YAY! I get it now – I think LOL! It’s basically a very rough boresighting of your INS to a recognizable land/radar feature? So OAs really can’t be used as originally intended in BMS because IIRC presently BMS jets don’t have any INS drift regardless of the block or aircraft even?
-
For example, I can understand it as a visual cue when set with VIP, but what does the option to mode select it do?
Making the XXX-TO-XXX text go reverse video with mode select simply turns on that VIP or VRP mode. It’s the same function as when you M-SEL to the top line text in any of sub-pages in VIP or VRP. The thing that turns on any of these points is that the RNG is > 0 feet.
So I think it’s more accurate to say that in BMS the OA can become the target?
Yes, we complain that the target is changing with sighting selection. Even in BMS if you have TGT selected it will give weapon aiming for TGT. The TGT should always be the weapon aiming point regardless of sighting location selected, not just when sighting location is TGT. It is not possible to attack sighting points other than TGT in the real airplane.
Well yeah, that does seem pretty useless to me when I had the target steerpoint to begin with.
This assumes two things rather rashly: that you had the target coordinates exactly and that your INS positioning is perfect. Imagine a special forces team is in the woods and sees some enemy troops in a wooded area 700m east of a big radio tower. The special forces team knows the relative positions of target and tower well but their own position poorly. Last Wednesday the USSR blew up half the GPS satellites and is jamming the other half. When you show up to the target the coordinates you got were only good to the nearest minute or two L/L and from the jamming bubble to target might be 30+ minutes. Your INS will have errors and the coordinates won’t be exact. Even if both aspects were perfect an extra level of verification is desirable. From a low level loft attack seeing the triangle over the OAP a few miles away might be the only verification you get that you’re on target. Slinging a couple tons of explosives warrants some care. We aren’t UPS after all.
The utility becomes apparent when you fly a few missions with the GPS switch flipped off. Every mission must be able to be accomplished with or without GPS.
Are there any issues with VIP and VRP implementation?
A few.
Because the target changes with the aiming rotary the HUD symbols shift around incorrectly, the target-designation box should stay on the target location when the rotary is cycled. OAP get the triangle, PUP circle, IP/RP diamond, and target the box.
There’s the VIP/PUP bug where the PUP placement is relative to a point which is relative to the steerpoint in a chained arrangement. All the offset points are one layer of offset from the steerpoint. There is no “A is 1000’ west of steerpoint and B is 1000’ west of A” going on. In this case the PUP should be relative to the IP since that is the steerpoint in VIP.
IP/RP slews are a separate layer than system deltas. If you roll in and do a IP/RP attack using lots of slews and on egress there is no change to the system deltas. The IP/RP slew layer doesn’t change the navigation (i.e. GCSC) solution.
On transition to IP/RP the SOI goes HUD and the sighting rotary is initialized IP for VIP (or TGT for VRP). A partial reset happens on leaving and returning to the IP/RP steerpoint, the IP/RP slews remain from last time but the other resets happen. On leaving mode like MRM and back a different kind of partial reset occurs where just the one-time position update is allowed again.
HUD SOI, TMS up does a one time (until reset) position set for the IP/RP slew layer and on fly over automatically changes sighting location and SOI to FCR/WPN.
We aren’t able to use ranges in nm or km, only feet.
Slewing rates vary based on symbol closest in HUD FOV.
-
-
For those that are curious, I did a second test with an airfield runway as preplanned STPT 5. Punch in 270 for 5000 ft where there is an imaginary Tank.
You can either cycle through the site points using TMS Right or OSB10 when the FCR is the SOI. For this document I just say “CYCLED” and usually I reference the label on OSB10 (“IP”, “TGT”, and “STP” when dealing with VIPs, “RP” and “TGT” when dealing with VRPs; “OA1”, “OA2”, and “STP” when dealing with Offset Aimpoints. Note: sometimes even if the FCR is not the SOI, TMS Right intermittently cycles the sight point but I don’t know why. It could be a glitch.
Also, keep in mind before selecting VIP-TO-TGT or TGT-TO-VRP and pressing M-SEL to highlight it, there is no change in visual cue and CYCLE does nothing.
VIPs
MK82. CYCLED to TGT, I get a visual cue where Runway becomes IP (diamond) and Tank becomes target (box) – however the drop cue is pointing towards the Runway/IP . When CYCLED to IP, I get only the target box for the Tank (no Runway IP) and the drop cues points towards. Both points are shown as IP 5 on the DED home page, rather than STPT 5.
GBU39. CYCLED to STP (not TGT anymore) I have a diamond on the Runway IP and the drop cue is pointed to it. CYCLED to IP I have a box over the Tank and the drop cue is pointed to the Tank. Also, Regardless of being CYCLED to STP or IP, I only get 1 visual clue (either the box or the diamond).
VRPs
MK82. CYCLED to TGT, I get a visual clue where the Tank becomes the IP and the Runway remains as the target with the drop cue still on the Runway. When CYCLED to RP, I get only the target box for the Tank (and the drop cue pointed at the Tank).
GBU39. CYCLED to STP (not TGT anymore) I have a box on the Runway and the drop cue is pointed to it. CYCLED to IP I have a box over the Tank and the drop cue is pointed to the Tank. Regardless of being CYCLED to STP or RP, I only get 1 visual clue (always a box).
OAs
I set OA1 to 270 for 5000 and OA2 to 90 for 5000.
MK 82s. CYCLED to STP I have a target box on the Runway and triangle to the West (on the Tank) and another triangle to the East and the drop cue is pointing to the Runway. CYCLED to OA1 I have box on the Tank with the drop cue pointed there and a triangle to the West and nothing on the Runway. CYCLED to OA2 I have the box over 090/5000 (say an imaginary orphanage) with drop cue, a triangle over the Tank, and nothing on the Runway.
GBU39s. CYCLED to STP I have a box (and nothing else) over the Runway; CYCLED to OA1 I have a box over the Tank; CYCLED to OA2 I have a box over 090/5000. In each case the bomb cue is pointing to wherever the box is.
Oh and I went and repeated some of this by flying out and finding a building and MARKing it and selecting it as steerpoint 26, and the behavior appeared to be the same (although I didn’t test everything).
-
I think you can step through the sighting rotary with HUD SOI or I’d be quite surprised if not. Doing things by HUD SOI slewing seems like equal or greater priority in design than the FCR or other sensor (hence V in VIP/VRP).
Your first test shows the deeper mistake with BMS VIP: it is treating “TGT” = steerpoint (which is IP) and “STP” = IP (which is relative point). There’s a labeling error. It’s treating VIP in some ways like it is structured like VRP (like having the steepoint be the target).
It looks like GBU-39 doesn’t participate in IP/RP/OAP sighting except as alternate targeting locations. I wonder what weapons do and don’t participate in IP/RP/OAP sighting like MK-82s. Mavericks are supposed to participate (judging by the SOI auto change to WPN mentioned) and I’ve never tried.
-
I think you can step through the sighting rotary with HUD SOI or I’d be quite surprised if not. Doing things by HUD SOI slewing seems like equal or greater priority in design than the FCR or other sensor (hence V in VIP/VRP).
Your first test shows the deeper mistake with BMS VIP: it is treating “TGT” = steerpoint (which is IP) and “STP” = IP (which is relative point). There’s a labeling error. It’s treating VIP in some ways like it is structured like VRP (like having the steepoint be the target).
It looks like GBU-39 doesn’t participate in IP/RP/OAP sighting except as alternate targeting locations. I wonder what weapons do and don’t participate in IP/RP/OAP sighting like MK-82s. Mavericks are supposed to participate (judging by the SOI auto change to WPN mentioned) and I’ve never tried.
The HUD very well might have been the SOI of interest when I noticed the “cycling” I could not explain – I tend to be a FCR/TGP kind of guy – thanks for the reminder! It was pretty fun to play around with and try to figure out what was going down. I wanted to address their utility to see why I would want to use them in game. The discussion of the real world application informs what might be possible, but I wanted to sort of focus on what I could do with it to enhance the in game experience. I haven’t really come up with any in game scenarios beyond what’s already been discussed (i.e. setting it up so you will have visual cues around the target area).
But when it comes to BMS single player:
I think VRP would be my choice when I have made a target steerpoint in the Recon map and the target is not a mobile target. I can use VRP mark either a threat near the target or an Ingress Point or an Egress Point.
I think VIP (not OA) would be my choice when I have or lay down a steerpoint on the go and I want to hunt down targets from that steerpoint. So right now I am playing ITO and Egypt has armor moving East. I spot GMT armor, as I roll off after my first pass, I can convert that steerpoint 26 into an IP and place the target box 5nm out to the East (or the direction of the road they were on). I now have a pretty sweet visual cue on the HUD for the known or suspected direction of travel (at least with MK82s at the ready).
I think OAs would be my choice for creating a triangle on the HUD. So instead of a kill box, you have a kill triangle. Also, for columns that are moving back and forth around a corner, you would place the steerpoint in the middle and one OA down the road East and the other OA up North. Again, a pretty sweet visual clue to help you make multiple passes and I can set it up pretty quickly.
I realize those are not necessarily how they are mainly used in real life, but I don’t have the option to fly jets, let alone travel into the past where these tools were used differently. But I think using these special forces to pilot, INS drift correction, backup tools when OPFOR knocks out your satellite tools relevant and useful in BMS will be fun. I just am thankful that supanova started this thread and so many have participated in the education process!
-
There’s the VIP/PUP bug where the PUP placement is relative to a point which is relative to the steerpoint in a chained arrangement. All the offset points are one layer of offset from the steerpoint. There is no “A is 1000’ west of steerpoint and B is 1000’ west of A” going on. In this case the PUP should be relative to the IP since that is the steerpoint in VIP.
If I understand you correctly you’re suggesting that the VIP PUP is positioned relative to the steerpoint rather than the IP. But in testing VIP I find the PUP is positioned relative to the VIP as expected. With VRP the PUP is relative to the steerpoint, also as expected.
-
In VIP the IP is the steerpoint. The PUP is being placed relative to target instead of IP.
-
I understand now.
The VIP becomes the steerpoint, and the VIP bearing and range position the target. The PUP then incorrectly takes its position relative to the target.