Possible active radar missile bug (very serious issue)
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i wonder also if the ECM has any effect to ARH missiles
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i wonder also if the ECM has any effect to ARH missiles
Good question and it depends on variables. All ARH missile have 1,05 or 1,1 ECM range modifier, it means ECM inreases and not decreases their range. But here comes the tricky part. All AC ECM value is 0, but if you increase the value in DB besides the ECM modifier the range reduction is much stronger. –-> I even do not know if the original 0 ECM strenght are used only the ECM modifier work or not.
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No prob Monli … take all the time you need. (If issue is confirmed, it will not be looked at tomorrow anyway )
Looking forward for findings and feedback. Thanks
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If that is true, then each chaff bundle you release, has a certain chance of breaking the radar’s lock. Let’s say it’s 0.05, or 5%. So there is a 0.95, or 95% chance that the radar will maintain its lock. Now if you release 2 bundles, the chances are compounded. The radar lock will only remain if the first bundle fails to brak the lock (95% chance) AND the second bundle as well, so the chance of the radar lock not being broken is 0.95 x 0.95 = .90, or 90%. Release 10 bundles and the chance the radar lock is not broken is 0.95^10=0.60. I used this to make the chance I break the lock almost 100%, by programming the EWS to release 99 sequences at 0.5s intervals, of burst of 99 bundles at 30ms intervals. Obviously, I set unlimited chaff and flares in setup. This huge amount of chaff will result in a very low chance the radar lock is not broken as 0.95^(some big number)=0.00 (rounded). I’ve used the same method in the past with AF.
I tested first an overfly of an SA-2. No problem. Multiple SAM’s were launched and they all missed.
Then I tested an overfly of an SA-10. The first SAM launched hit me.
Then I tested an F-16 firing an AMRAAM. It also hit me.
This corroborates the finding of Molni: chaff is ineffective against ARH missiles.
There is one mechanism I left out of my explanation above, which is that the effectiveness of chaff used to be also affected by the range of the radar to the platform emitting chaff. So chaff would have almost no effect at large ranges, then increase effectiveness, then reduce to zero again at close range. There used to be two profiles for this: one for SARH missiles, and one for ARH. Perhaps the profile for ARH missiles was somehow broken, and chaff effectiveness is now multplied by zero at all ranges?
range also matters. RP5 manual pg. 292:
0 0
0 12000
0.75 24000
0.75 48000
0 120000basically your best chance (well according to RP5) to break lock is between 4 and 8nm
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Yes, against SARH missiles and IR missile are range modifiers. I have to say the characteristics of the modifier against ARHs are not suitable, especially because of the AI.
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This is just my noob fell but i think that hard lock is way too easy to break , those semi-active missiles and sams will never be threat for player.
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This is just my noob fell but i think that hard lock is way too easy to break , those semi-active missiles and sams will never be threat for player.
haukka81, what is your technique for breaking lock against semi-active missiles? Does it include a particular chaff/flare program? Semi-active give me more trouble than active. thks.
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Semi-active give me more trouble than active
At small distance maybe but above 5-6 nm a simple dive + ECM + beaming after the dive gives you quite a good chance.
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@Axe:
haukka81, what is your technique for breaking lock against semi-active missiles? Does it include a particular chaff/flare program? Semi-active give me more trouble than active. thks.
What molni says, works well , very easy to beam those. My chaff program is 6 chaff / 0.25 seconds
-haukka81
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thanks molnibalage, that’s what I do but with mixed results, mostly not too good. But I’m not dropping chaff as many or as fast as haukka81 (thanks for sharing the program with me).
I’m going to change my chaff program. Glad that I asked:)
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Hey Molni,
I’m almost 100% sure that active radar missile are 100% immune against chaff which means a major bug. I tested AC radars with 0.99 chaff chance value with AIM-7 and happened what I expected. Single chaff was able to break radar lock and caused a miss. I created a 3 x 3 F-15C TE and all missile defeated easily on bothd sides regardless of distance or relative position.
I set the same 0.99 value of AIM-120 and runned the same TE. Regardless I dropped dozens of chaff within 1-2 sec missiles never lost the lock on me and of course AI also was not able defeat any AIM-120 with decoys. I think the results are very definite.
I’m not sure but as I can remember OF had different chaff from BMS4 has currently. During the developing FF I found 100% same issue in a beta version of FF. FF devs changed the chaff and caused somehow the bug. What a coincidance, isn’t it?
I can record tests with many different missiles and AC if it is required.
had a look at this…
Enabled some debug output in EXE and flew a dogfight match F-16C-52 (combat AP) vs. Typhoon (AI), F-16 had 2 AIM-120, Typhoon 2 Meteor loaded.
Could see one of the Meteors launched by typhoon locked onto a flare…So code does work in general, maybe you can have a look what is different in seeker data AIM-120 vs. BVRAAM.
Cheers
Biker -
Enabled some debug output in EXE and flew a dogfight match F-16C-52 (combat AP) vs. Typhoon (AI), F-16 had 2 AIM-120, Typhoon 2 Meteor loaded.
There is no Meteor in released BMS4 version. Are you speaking about BVRAAM* weapon? It has Meteor shaped 3D model.
If ARH is locked on to a flare is problem. During test I did not used dispenser programs what I dropped chaff I also dropped flares in manual mode. Decoys had 0 effect on ARHs. I will try with differe ARHs.
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Hi Molni,
There is no Meteor in released BMS4 version. Are you speaking about BVRAAM* weapon? It has Meteor shaped 3D model.
If ARH is locked on to a flare is problem. During test I did not used dispenser programs what I dropped chaff I also dropped flares in manual mode. Decoys had 0 effect on ARHs. I will try with differe ARHs.
Meteor = BVRAAM = ARH missile and for such chaff has an effect!!!
Just you cannot see why missile does loose track on target, but with debug output I could see.Cheers
Biker -
How can I activate the debug mode?
The correlation between the chaff and loosing the lock is quite obvious. If you cannot use chaff an ARH never loose the lock on you. Never. Simply the modeling values does not make possible. You can fly in ground clutter, you can do beaming, it does not matter. When you drop some chaff then the lock instantly breaks it is 100% obvious why happened especially if I’m not in ground clutter, I’m not perfoming beam turn and I’m not using ECM. You can eliminate certain effect during the tests.
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I just tested in MP. I made two video record. I set 0.99 chaff chance for AIM-120. Effect was 100% the same as in single player. Within some sec me and the other player used the 60 chaff but the lock did not was broken.
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Some test were done wit BVRAAM. I set 0.99 chaff chance.
Sometimes the chaff worked but mostly did not. It seemed me during the test if the launch AC used its radar in TWS or RWS mode and bugged the target after the missile lock was broken - just for a fraction of a second or a second - somehow the missile relocked again the target and become immue to chaff.
If the launcher turned off its radar launched the missile in BORE mode while radar was turned off sometimes chaff worked, but not every time.
AIM-120 never lost the lock.
I will test with AI AIM-54, MICA and Meteor either, but the results so far are conclusive to me, ARHs mostly do not work as should do.
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With AMRAAM’s comment about high-altitude problems, it seems the 120 needs to be seriously looked at.
Why even bother with real-world tactics when the sim doesn’t model it properly?
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It seemed me during the test if the launch AC used its radar in TWS or RWS mode and bugged the target after the missile lock was broken - just for a fraction of a second or a second - somehow the missile relocked again the target and become immue to chaff.
The issue is 100% visible and reproducible against MICA EM and AIM-54. At ~10 nm radar goes active, I drop some chaff ‘M’ disappears but at about ~6-7 nm relock me, but the missile and in this phase is immune to chaff. Missiles which go active at smaller distance - R-77 (AA-12) - you cannot brake the radar lock.
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OK had a closer look…
Radar data chaff chance is multiplied with a factor which is dependent on missile to target range.
| RNG [nm]
| 0.00
| 1.97
| 3.95
| 7.90
| 19.75
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| Factor
| 0.00
| 0.00
| 0.75
| 0.75
| 0.00
|Means chaffs are most efficient between 4 and 8 nm, if missile is closer or farther from target chaff chance does decrease.
This is same for all types if missiles and seekers.Cheers
Biker -
I know, but what I say 7.9 nm is more or less exacty the distance where AIM-54 goes active again after I have defeated and immune to chaff regardless I drop dozens or all 60 between 4-8 nm distance.
Should I recored video about all type of ARHs…? Believe me, ARH does not work as in older Falcon. When I tested with same values in FF4 or FF5 missiles were defeated. In BMS4 they are not. Even with original modeling values - which means about 0.05 chaff chance - in FF4/FF5 if you set very small time gap between releases and use them in ground clutter and instanteniously afther ‘M’ appeared on RWR the defeat was possible. In BMS4 with 0.99 is impossible except the one case what I described.