F-104J / F-104DJ / F-104 ASA/M / F-104C / F-104G /
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Main diferences are between ASA and normal G. I think at least… but the major export for f-104 Was the -G and as coutry- wise no much differneces. Most of those was in the ejection seat and some intruments each coutry had. To make it clear some countries receive the c-2 ejection seat version some the Martin baker. Other than that they basically the same. J-79 engines etc sub systems might vary but other than that nothing really. Oh and the exaust pedals this need research. For example greece had both exausts… and no they didnt had any special name in Germa ny other than “widow maker”
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Thank you for your information Manos.
What about Kormoran missile ? It was implemented on both aircrafts? I also read somewhere F-104G could use Orpheus pod, I was wondering if both F-104G, Luftwaffe and Marine could use it?
Regards,
Radium
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I love the F-104 and that’s a gorgeous model there!
IIRC, the Orpheus pod was only used on the RF-104G, which had it’s F-104G fuselage altered to create a camera bay behind the nose wheel landing gear bay. I know that Italy and the Netherlands bought the Orpheus pod for use on the RF-104G, replacing the old camera’s carried by the RF-104G. I’m not sure if Germany ever bought the Orpheus pods though. The Royal Netherlands Air Force later modified some of their F-16A models to carry the Orpheus pods, which were unofficially referred to as F-16A or F-16A locally.
The F-104J was different in that it was locally manufactured by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries in Japan and while based on the F-104G, it all of the strike/attack capabilities removed, in order to comply with weapon export treaties that limit the offensive capabilities of the Japanese Self Defense Force. Although it looked externally identical to the F-104G, a bit like the German Luftwaffe F-4F vs the USAF F-4E.
The F-104S-ASA and F-104S-ASA-M are entirely different beasts. Exclusive to the Italian Air Force (AMI), these were the most modern Starfighters in the world.
The ASA could carry the all-aspect AIM-9L and radar-guided Apside missiles. The ASA-M was even further upgraded (at a time when the Eurofighter was starting to look like vaporware…. ) with avionics compatible with the AMX and Tornado, new computers, etc. All this modern gear was actually a lot lighter than the ancient electronics so the ASA-M was even more of a hot rod than the older Starfighters. I still vividly remember seeing ASAs and ASA-Ms flying around.The AS.34 Kormoran 1 was used on the Luftwaffe F-104Gs and later also on the Tornado IDS. The AS.34 Kormoran 2 is exclusive to the Tornado I believe (by the sheer fact that the Luftwaffe had already retired the F-104G by the time the new version of the AS.34 was introcuced) and is used by both the Luftwaffe and the AMI.
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I love the F-104 and that’s a gorgeous model there!
IIRC, the Orpheus pod was only used on the RF-104G, which had it’s F-104G fuselage altered to create a camera bay behind the nose wheel landing gear bay. I know that Italy and the Netherlands bought the Orpheus pod for use on the RF-104G, replacing the old camera’s carried by the RF-104G. I’m not sure if Germany ever bought the Orpheus pods though. The Royal Netherlands Air Force later modified some of their F-16A models to carry the Orpheus pods, which were unofficially referred to as F-16A or F-16A locally.
The F-104J was different in that it was locally manufactured by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries in Japan and while based on the F-104G, it all of the strike/attack capabilities removed, in order to comply with weapon export treaties that limit the offensive capabilities of the Japanese Self Defense Force. Although it looked externally identical to the F-104G, a bit like the German Luftwaffe F-4F vs the USAF F-4E.
The F-104S-ASA and F-104S-ASA-M are entirely different beasts. Exclusive to the Italian Air Force (AMI), these were the most modern Starfighters in the world.
The ASA could carry the all-aspect AIM-9L and radar-guided Apside missiles. The ASA-M was even further upgraded (at a time when the Eurofighter was starting to look like vaporware…. ) with avionics compatible with the AMX and Tornado, new computers, etc. All this modern gear was actually a lot lighter than the ancient electronics so the ASA-M was even more of a hot rod than the older Starfighters. I still vividly remember seeing ASAs and ASA-Ms flying around.The AS.34 Kormoran 1 was used on the Luftwaffe F-104Gs and later also on the Tornado IDS. The AS.34 Kormoran 2 is exclusive to the Tornado I believe (by the sheer fact that the Luftwaffe had already retired the F-104G by the time the new version of the AS.34 was introcuced) and is used by both the Luftwaffe and the AMI.
Hello,
Thank you very much for your informatin about F-104, it is really interesting.
However, F-104J “Eiko” had some air to ground capabilities.
These capabilities were really limitated, but they existed. It was a legend that Japan was forbidden to have air to ground capabilities.
In the 70s, Japan conducted some tests with Mitsubishi T-2 to design a IR guided bomb. They were later called GCS-1 and deployed on Mitsubishi F-2.
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F-1 was however more dedicated to air to ground mission :
![](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/a/(KGrHqNHJFIFC-dO03CYBQvuYWWT+!~~/s-l300.jpg)
JASDF pilots were trained in the 80s to use air to ground ammunitions, like MK82.
And, main mission of Mitsubishi F-1 was to fire the powerful ASM-1 anti-ship missile :
These days, it’s very common to see F-2 with GBU-38 :
Legends about Japan are still strong!
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I think you’re mixing two things up. I never meant to say that Japan couldn’t have offensive capabilities but FMS exports to Japan were very much restricted. Lockheed couldn’t simply sell the F-104G “as is”, in particular with the ability to drop nuclear weapons.
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I think you’re mixing two things up. I never meant to say that Japan couldn’t have offensive capabilities but FMS exports to Japan were very much restricted. Lockheed couldn’t simply sell the F-104G “as is”, in particular with the ability to drop nuclear weapons.
In fact I’m not mixing things, you wrote :
The F-104J was different in that it was locally manufactured by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries in Japan and while based on the F-104G, it all of the strike/attack capabilities removed
You might not have been clear enough in this case, I’m just quoting you! In fact, basic air to surface capacities remained (M61 machine gun and mk4 FFAR).
Maybe just misunderstanding.
Regards,
Radium
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You might not have been clear enough in this case, I’m just quoting you! In fact, basic air to surface capacities remained (M61 machine gun and mk4 FFAR).
Considering you can hang a FFAR pod under a T-33, that hardly makes it a strike aircraft in my book
The F-104J F-15J-31 fire control radar lacked the dedicated air-to-ground modes of the F15A-41B installed in the F-104G, which did provide support to drop Mk84, Mk83, MK82 and Mk117 bombs, CBU-33 cluster bombs, Napalm canisters and even B-61 atomic weapons.
I don’t know if the F-104J had the pylon wiring removed as well or altered to only allow wiring up of the AIM-9B? If not, the F-104J would have still been technically of dropping bombs but without fire control radar, I doubt it would have been any more effective than tossing bombs out of a biplane.
Let me reverse the question - if this was a myth, why would Lockheed bother to design the F-104J, given that it would have been cheaper to just license the production of 207 F-104Gs instead?
If the F-104J would have been identical to the F-104G, it would have been designated F-104G.
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beautiful rendering! Can you do a full ramp start?
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Considering you can hang a FFAR pod under a T-33, that hardly makes it a strike aircraft in my book
The F-104J F-15J-31 fire control radar lacked the dedicated air-to-ground modes of the F15A-41B installed in the F-104G, which did provide support to drop Mk84, Mk83, MK82 and Mk117 bombs, CBU-33 cluster bombs, Napalm canisters and even B-61 atomic weapons.
I don’t know if the F-104J had the pylon wiring removed as well or altered to only allow wiring up of the AIM-9B? If not, the F-104J would have still been technically of dropping bombs but without fire control radar, I doubt it would have been any more effective than tossing bombs out of a biplane.
Let me reverse the question - if this was a myth, why would Lockheed bother to design the F-104J, given that it would have been cheaper to just license the production of 207 F-104Gs instead?
If the F-104J would have been identical to the F-104G, it would have been designated F-104G.
Hello,
I wonder if you read my posts…
I never said F-104J had the same air to ground capabilities than F-104G. F-104J was an interceptor which still had some very basic air to surface capability, including machine gun and rockets. I even never saw Eiko carrying freefall bomb, while Jieitai pilots had air to ground training with BDU-33/SUU-21 on F-104DJ. F-104J was designed to climb fast and deliver her Sidewinders. But, some limited light attack capabilities remained. That’s all. I never said something else.
Regards,
Radium
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Here’s a great documentary on the Starfighter
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Well… This video really made me… I wanted to punch the speaking puppets so much that I didn’t watched everything… What was the purpose of this? It looks like 90’ video show… Sorry, I hated this!
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Not a documentary, it is an episode of MST3K Season 6 Episode 12 making fun of a horrible 1964 movie called “The Starfighters” about a pilot who is the son of a congressman.
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Well, it wasn’t his fault, after all. :lol:
With best regards,
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The F-104 is my favourite single engine above Mach 1 jet and I look very much forward to this plane. I can offer to research and send fotos, text/videos about the German F-104G if needed…otherwise I trust Radium and TOPOLO…and am glad Nordic offers an F-104 already.
Can’t wait to check TOPOLO’s FM and the end result, sooo hope it gets its own cockpit.
(Cockpit nerd here like some dude from Japan with a fetish for rock n roll can copnfirm)…Carry on
Old times! F-104s. !
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PS: Sorry for typos BMS staff, my recent keyb. sucks, will aim at getting better in that regime.
Kind greets
Tom -
The F-104 is my favourite single engine above Mach 1 jet and I look very much forward to this plane. I can offer to research and send fotos, text/videos about the German F-104G if needed…otherwise I trust Radium and TOPOLO…and am glad Nordic offers an F-104 already.
Can’t wait to check TOPOLO’s FM and the end result, sooo hope it gets its own cockpit.
(Cockpit nerd here like some dude from Japan with a fetish for rock n roll can copnfirm)…Carry on
Old times! F-104s. !
Who knows… Who knows what could be done…
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Who knows… Who knows what could be done…
…which would be very awesome, given the value of your outside model work and TOPOLO’s FM work.
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One sexy metal plane chick there! This is- despite interest for jets like the Viper/Tomcat/Hornet and Tiger- one of the iconic planes of the jet aka fighter /edge of the envelope challenge itching planes since 1953/54…the main missing link between early 50s jets like the Sabre and the high performance jet era - and - for really interested chaps - the ONLY century series plane with wide sales and post 60s / even 80s service…that’s why I like “her” so much and did so even in FF days.
Well, long talk short, glad that here and in another non BMS forum this jet is mkept “sim” alive.Chrs
Tom
Notwithstanding the fact that the Viper would kick its ass in most regimes…:) Itching my love for 60s jets almost as much as my hurt foot itches my mind.:(
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…may he who was banned come back ASAP.
Cheers
Tom -
I am back dear friends!