"Recalculate" function in F4Browse missing in BMS Editor
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Please … only technical inputs.
Thank you!
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End of the initiative (for the moment)
Unsuccessful at this time.
Need to be more discussed internally. Will keep you advised about the opportunity to restore it.
We continue here about the Re-Calculate feature.
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@A.S:
Recap for Biker (related to our PMs):
F Squadron Stores not labeled with plane-names in BMS Editor.
and what is that “You pay 8 Dolla soldier boy…8 dolla 8 dolla” pop-up window in BMS Editor if i click on ACD Usage under Radar Data ie.? LOL wtf?
or the “It No work Yet” message if i click on [Used By] button?
Radar flags only provide “Has NCTR”. Missing “Has TWS, TRF, A-A Radar and is A-G Radar flags”
F Can´t access “Weapon Data” via double-clicking through “Vehicle Data Details” page. Have to close and re-open a new window under different tab. DUMP… have to click “View” instead, ok.
“Seeker Data” button under “Weapon Data” page doesn´t open Seeker Data.
“Open” button for Mover Definition Data under “Class Table Data Editor” no work.
NO Recalculate = VERY CRUCIAL *explanation 1 below
Syncronized UPDATE of database LINKS not possible in BMS Editor *explanation 2 below
No option to change global settings or to operate or set global operation like
- “Set Low Air”
- “Sort Hardpiont Tables”
- “Search for specific CT”
- “Create Cockpit List”
Import/Export ability of specific entries would be awesome !
F Can´t see the pylon slot (number) under “Weapon Hardpoint”
IMPORTANT: No “Position” in the ROSTER/SLOTS (see pic). Number is displayed as “Element” fair enough.
http://www.pictureshoster.com/thumbnails/prs0gg8934j7jbzokwk_thumb.jpg
> if i find more i will add it here under this list !
Explanation 1:
The function or purpose of [RECALCULATE] demonstrated quickly in a screenshot in F4Browse.
http://www.pictureshoster.com/thumbnails/fv0nv8zyltyndwwlr5vu_thumb.jpg
Each time Stats-related PROPERTIES of Units, Vehicles, Weapons, Roster Slots etc. etc. are changed (fields in green i.e) the STATS (in red) MUST BE RECALCULATED to calculate the new concluding values so
the AI understands the new STATS and thus concludes therfore the updated new proper “behavior”. This is not possible in BMS-Editor (or i don´t see it, or it happens automatically, which i higly doubt) and one can not
edit/calculate the new STATS manually as those are code-based and auto-calculated. Not to mention, that it would be immensly tidious to do so.
Explanation 2:
Auto- or manaul-[UPDATE] of linked db-content (database LINKS).
First of all, what are LINKS? Links are commonly used or shared entries among classifications. For example a VEHICLE (T-90 Tank ie) is defined under VEHICLES as an individual “element” with its own properties.
But under UNITS this same VEHICLE can be used in different classsifcations, groupings or for simplification in different Battalions.Now, lets say we go to VECICLES, pick that single individual T-90 Tank and change some properties of it. So what happens now to the T-90 tanks used under UNITS (Battlions)???
In F4Browse the common rules was to update manually first the VEHICLE then all UNITS using that same edited Vehicle. I know… it sounds like pain in da arse - and it was - but it is a MUST.
What i did was to make my edits and RE-UPDATE the whole database (Weapons, RWD, Radar Data etc etc) afterwards in F4Browse.
Don´t worry, i haven´t seen ONE theater out there having that right (exception Demers´ work i think). Many modders edit stuff, but dont update the entire “links” IN THE database.A different case:
We “edit” a plane (add new hardpoint or weapon ie), then we need to update that PLANE (VEHICLE) then the “Flights” and “Squadrons” using that plane (UNIT), otherwise the edit is not transfered abroad the entire database (see pic)!
http://www.pictureshoster.com/thumbnails/vv2mng3akuuv4q5085aa_thumb.jpg
Those are just examples as there are other LINK variations (Hardpoints, Radar Data, RWD Data, Sim Weapon Data, VDS, Weapons). First we need to understand the linked-logic IN F4 database, inlucding FLAGS and their code-based functions. This applies for everything. If we don´t know how the code-database STRUCTURE operates within the sim, edits can be fatal waste of time. For me(us) it was experimental confrimations in TEs as i had to test and confrim everything without knowing or seeing the code lines, you guys have the luxury to rip the source apart regards.
^+1
Yes, the DB is a bit messy last I looked at it , many of recal is needed .
OP , you start with weapon edits, add to loadout of vehicle and recal, then the units connected do the same .
Its not a avg it is the max value, if your weapon has x data and its bigger than anything else in loadout , recal will raise the vcd data to that value. If it is smaller then recal will do nothing .You can’t bet how f4browse can sort and show all linked data, nothing comes close to that can save hrs of work if you know what your doing . It can show duplicate linkage , like 2 radar data linked to a AC and many other things .
Last I looked one of the F16 with updated radar had 2 radar linked (one through vcd radar pointer and one through acd radar sensor) . -
A little insight into recalc function in F4Browse if I may:
extern char* GetVehicleName (VehicleID vid); extern VehicleClassDataType* GetVehicleClassData (int index); // extern int GetVehicleHitChance (Unit u, int id, int mt, int range, int hitflags); extern int GetAproxVehicleHitChance (int id, int mt, int range); extern int CalculateVehicleHitChance (int id, int mt); // extern int GetVehicleCombatStrength (Unit u, int id, int mt, int range); extern int GetAproxVehicleCombatStrength (int id, int mt, int range); extern int CalculateVehicleCombatStrength (int id, int mt); extern int GetAproxVehicleRange (int id, int mt); // extern int GetVehicleRange (Unit u, int id, int mt); extern int CalculateVehicleRange (int id, int mt); extern int GetVehicleDetectionRange (int id, int mt); extern int GetBestVehicleWeapon (int id, uchar* dam, MoveType m, int range, int *hard_point); extern void CalculateVehicleStatistics (int id); extern int GetVehicleWeapon (int vid, int hp); extern int GetVehicleWeapons (int vid, int hp);
If we look at the tool and read this backwards we should understand that we need to recalc\update from the “Bottom of the Tree” up to the top.
E.G. If we change a weapons data and update it in F4Browse. Then we must update and recalculate the vehicle it is used by, then the unit that the vehicle belongs to….etc. on up the tree until we hit the CT record.
What is confusing is that we need to keep UPDATING the associated records as we move up the tree. If we don’t, then JimG would be correct.
Tedious process, I know…but this is how I have done it for years and have taught others to do it.
Campaign results are much better once completed…;)Hope this helps,
demerWOW nice to see ya’ ED_1, hope you are well!!!
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A little insight into recalc function in F4Browse if I may:
extern char* GetVehicleName (VehicleID vid); extern VehicleClassDataType* GetVehicleClassData (int index); // extern int GetVehicleHitChance (Unit u, int id, int mt, int range, int hitflags); extern int GetAproxVehicleHitChance (int id, int mt, int range); extern int CalculateVehicleHitChance (int id, int mt); // extern int GetVehicleCombatStrength (Unit u, int id, int mt, int range); extern int GetAproxVehicleCombatStrength (int id, int mt, int range); extern int CalculateVehicleCombatStrength (int id, int mt); extern int GetAproxVehicleRange (int id, int mt); // extern int GetVehicleRange (Unit u, int id, int mt); extern int CalculateVehicleRange (int id, int mt); extern int GetVehicleDetectionRange (int id, int mt); extern int GetBestVehicleWeapon (int id, uchar* dam, MoveType m, int range, int *hard_point); extern void CalculateVehicleStatistics (int id); extern int GetVehicleWeapon (int vid, int hp); extern int GetVehicleWeapons (int vid, int hp);
If we look at the tool and read this backwards we should understand that we need to recalc\update from the “Bottom of the Tree” up to the top.
E.G. If we change a weapons data and update it in F4Browse. Then we must update and recalculate the vehicle it is used by, then the unit that the vehicle belongs to….etc. on up the tree until we hit the CT record.
What is confusing is that we need to keep UPDATING the associated records as we move up the tree. If we don’t, then JimG would be correct.
Tedious process, I know…but this is how I have done it for years and have taught others to do it.
Campaign results are much better once completed…;)Hope this helps,
demerWOW nice to see ya’ ED_1, hope you are well!!!
I am ok ,
right, the recal function only recals on the data it has to work on, depending on where you recal from (VCd, UCD etc ) .
So your right, you need to work on weapon first or any data used to go into VCD , then recal and work your way to UCD .
You can’t just do UCD first as it has wrong data possibly . recal also updates things like fuel usage an amounts from VCD>Ucd . -
^+1
Yes, the DB is a bit messy last I looked at it , many of recal is needed .
You can’t bet how f4browse can sort and show all linked data, nothing comes close to that can save hrs of work if you know what your doing . It can show duplicate linkage , like 2 radar data linked to a AC and many other things . Last I looked one of the F16 with updated radar had 2 radar linked (one through vcd radar pointer and one through acd radar sensor) .
Yes, that is my worry. I complete understand, that the BMS Team wants to create new and better tool, this is a logical process tbh. But to “eliminate” Tacedit and F4Browse at this stage as Mav-Jp pointed out in another thread
Consider tacedit and f4browse dead for ever
would be an immense SETBACK for theater or campaign developers, and not only for 3rd party developers.
I completly appreciate and respect the MissionCommander and BMS-Editor idea, but one carefull step after another is highly recommended. A “smart” transition from old tools to new tools.
To be quiete frank, there is NO WAY in hell to create a theater from scratch in the same detailed quality with MissionCommander and BMS-Editor as with the older conventional tool.
As example: no Parent linking, no objective linking, no pak map creation, no VC data, no relief or water maps, no brigade or division links etc etc etc in MC.
MC is an “Editing” tool at best, but NOT a complete campaign CREATOR like Tacedit at all. I know, some will not believe this, so i am willing to elaborate this in detail again - why that is so - if i will be asked. Building a working great campaign is much more complex than just placing and editing “squadrons”, “battalions” and “brigades” etc. in a .cam or .tac file.
@Falcas (the MC programer), i will share all my knowledge and exprience with you regards in order to make MC better and more applicable than Tacedit - if you like…
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A little insight into recalc function in F4Browse if I may:
extern char* GetVehicleName (VehicleID vid); extern VehicleClassDataType* GetVehicleClassData (int index); // extern int GetVehicleHitChance (Unit u, int id, int mt, int range, int hitflags); extern int GetAproxVehicleHitChance (int id, int mt, int range); extern int CalculateVehicleHitChance (int id, int mt); // extern int GetVehicleCombatStrength (Unit u, int id, int mt, int range); extern int GetAproxVehicleCombatStrength (int id, int mt, int range); extern int CalculateVehicleCombatStrength (int id, int mt); extern int GetAproxVehicleRange (int id, int mt); // extern int GetVehicleRange (Unit u, int id, int mt); extern int CalculateVehicleRange (int id, int mt); extern int GetVehicleDetectionRange (int id, int mt); extern int GetBestVehicleWeapon (int id, uchar* dam, MoveType m, int range, int *hard_point); extern void CalculateVehicleStatistics (int id); extern int GetVehicleWeapon (int vid, int hp); extern int GetVehicleWeapons (int vid, int hp);
If we look at the tool and read this backwards we should understand that we need to recalc\update from the “Bottom of the Tree” up to the top.
E.G. If we change a weapons data and update it in F4Browse. Then we must update and recalculate the vehicle it is used by, then the unit that the vehicle belongs to….etc. on up the tree until we hit the CT record.
What is confusing is that we need to keep UPDATING the associated records as we move up the tree. If we don’t, then JimG would be correct.
Tedious process, I know…but this is how I have done it for years and have taught others to do it.Campaign results are much better once completed…;)
Hope this helps,
demerWOW nice to see ya’ ED_1, hope you are well!!!
@Demer and Ed1 Right On! Nice posts and important ones.
The database has to MAINTAIN INTEGRITY - one can not only “edit” pieces are parts “at wish” without recalculating and updating “LINKED” content.
That´s the whole point of having a tool able to do so and that is exactly why i pointed to the [UPDATE] and [RECLACULATE] features of F4Browse above.
At best BMS Editor gets those features even better working than F4Browse!!??!?At this point having BOTH TOOLS:
Tacedit AND MC
BMS editor AND F4Browseis an ideal constelation and they complement eachother beautifully. Just “killing” or deleting one of those tool would be BAD, unless new tools become indeed better than previous tools.
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So as I see it the recalculate as Ed_1 and Demmer said has to work from bottom to top and to help ease the process this should be auto. So u update the bottom then it should auto update all the rest.
One more thing in general and maybe? out of the box.
Wouldn’t it be more easy to add functionality to group or multiselect and work on those data? If not it would be great to export those data and work them on let’s say in Excel. There u can do whatever and ease way much the “pain” process and then import back.
What is needed are good field names (not field_10 but Radar Range as field name) maybe a standard (UTF-8 ? ) for language?I’m talking besides one by one changes here but some massive changes like pump up those x selected by x%.
Like VehicleRange for those group by “Naval” x selected vehicles increase the values by 20%.
Good way to do this is not only by mouse but also with Keyb combo like Arrows (UP Down) and spacebar to select.Better even let u select groups and fields and then present u in a matrix those values and then let u either export or edit those fields. Adding functionality here like excel to short and filter entries will be great.
That way u have infront of u only the data u need and not the whole matrix of data. This way u reduce human error (type a value in a wrong field). Another option could be to move the fields where u want them in a matrix view… So bring infront what u work on and leave the rest behind (left right side). -
added one fix, or more a suggestion in the list in post #2 above:
The preview 3D window in BMS-Editor for objectives (Features and Point Data) uses template tiles (textures) below the objectives, so it is not possible to align objectives (like bridges i.e) with specific for those areas used real textures or tiles ingame, unless Terrain-Editor (as visual reference) is used in combination with BMS-Editor (which i do) -then this task is achievable nicely.
The problematic is, that one objective type can be used over different tiles (textures) in 3D infact and the edtior can only load one “template” as “background” so to speak. If it would be achieveable, that BMS-Editor can selectable provide all those refering textures (tiles) in a drop-down menu, it would be amazingly awesome gents.OT (sorry) sidenote as inpiration: Who says, that bridges i.e have to be always in the “middle” of tiles and that they have to be aligned north-south or east-west all the time? RF5
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U can do this now AS by giving the xy values on the bottom, u get those from TE or Tacedit and u put them in reverse like X in FE=Y in TE.
What u say would be nice if it took from the Objectives list the camp id and show u automatically the list select and view and edit it then. Nice one.
that way u use one app only and not go back and forth.
Also the functionality that the objectives list in Terrain editor has would be nice… like short by field and go to selected.R we talking in general here or just for the recalculate function? cause I made some additions here: https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?16150-Database-guru-needed-here!/page13
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Right. Currently it requires two independent tools at the same time to achieve objective-texture alignments.
Well, this thread is called “Recalculate” function in F4Browse missing in BMS Editor" indeed, but as i was already PM-ing with Biker about probable improvements for the Editor compared to F4Browse… i was so free to recap that discussion publically in a list in post #2 https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?19386-quot-Recalculate-quot-function-in-F4Browse-missing-in-BMS-Editor&p=279380&viewfull=1#post279380
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U did super well A.S posting other info I just ask so not to confuse biker or any other with the storm :lol: of info here in case this is a major subject (recalculate) and want’s to have it clean and be done with it.
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Well, i was aksed to share points of this particular matter in detail many times (you included afair) … so i did.
I don´t think Biker will be “confused” so fast and [RECALCULATE] is just one part of many other “Improve the BMS Editor” areas, so all things still under the same category (global picture matters).
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This is just what I have done in past as of course depends on code to , but I liked “not” have a auto cal off say unit (UCD data) that would recal everything , why ?
Well there are handful weapons that have really high range and what I would do with these and the loadouts they go into is limit the range part , I forget the limit I would add to range but it was like something like 100km area I think, since F4 engine can’t handle ballistic ranges I limited those few . It worked out well have to recal the VCD and UCD separate . there a few other places I did recal separately but forget what it was .
The back bone of F4 DB it it’s ct entries , that needs to be able to see list and sort it similar to F4borwse or your going to get lost or have DB with duplicates and missed linkages .
SP4 DB had many people editing it but it got messed up with bad links or missing data even on some ct files .Main thing you can’t simplify the editor or you lose control of what it can do , I can see BMS not wanting to use Taceditor or F4browse as they don’t have SC to move forward with improvements but you need feature with the same ability or your hands are tied trying to do anything .
Getting back on topic, bad recal will show up with seeing different damages and results from 3d in game, to 2d map . there already different calculations but having recal off can make it even worse .
Edit: this came to mind, things like detection range (which is vehicle ability electronic detection>radar) don’t get recal in f4browse but that could be feature added to editor . only things to remember the radar used on some ac are shared so recal would make them all same and you need to remember ranges after 250-255 and how that works (50+km for every 1 value added ). there a lot that can be improved here, just with some caution . -
Hey guys,
some questions and comments on this:
- For vehicles, why completely rely on HitChance/Range from weapons? I mean same weapon can have different hit chance and/or range (because of ACs sensors, guidance equipment) on different launching platforms?
- If we want this automatically computer for all vehicles/units we can do in sim (when loading data from DB) also, so why do it in editor?
- We’re making a mountain out of a molehill here, because lot of the data anyway is a raw guesstimation (e.g. for missile range no dependency on launch speed, launch altitude, etc.) can anybody say how big is the effect because of the mission recalculate functionality?
Cheers
Biker -
most of ranges and hitchance are mainly for 2d weapons affects , abstract (like many guns ) true 3d weapons in game use missile.dat so these ranges are just used in 2d map , were AI fire for range (Km) .
As for vehicles , AFAIK it uses the highest hitchance for each feil with accord range, but you can set detection ranges , there not done with recal or weapons data .
Look at a sam lancher , you have ranges (air an low air along with detection range . Now your saying if you had a weapon radar guided 100km but radar was 50km , then detection value should be 50km and I don’t think it will fire in 2d . Surely it won’t in 3d cause it modeled better . Having different hitchances to vehicle would be tricky i think , I don’t think you run into that kind of issue , this is all 2d calculations . For where it might happen normally you would just make another weapon with hitchance alter for that ac , but that is rare IMO .Anyway, you still want the vcd to UCD (vehicle to unit ) to match , what your saying the weapon would not get recaled auto across all DB , which goes to what I posted above ,there are or maybe few places you wouldn’t want auto recal IMO .
See what AS or others that work with DB, I would have to fire/install stuff to give more specifc answers .
Also there more to recal than just hitchance and ranges, fuel rate/usage gets recal too .As for the affects , I think that would depend on how bad the data didn’t match up . you would have to test this .easy way would be run a test vehicle with say short range weapons , have everything match up, then add a much longer range weapon and don’t update vehicle or units .
From 2d map I don’t think you will see it use the full range of the weapon .
So in 3d the AI will use the weapon but the 2d won’t match up, that is what I remember , easy to test .