HOTAS Warthog vs Saitek X-55
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Hi everyone.
I am a long time F-16 “virtual pilot”, but I never had a HOTAS system.
In the last 10 years or so, I have been flying with the various versions of Falcon with a simple Thrustmaster USB stick (this one http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/usb-joystick), and of course I had to use the keyboard for all HOTAS controls.
Now I’m finally older, with a bit of money to invest in the HOTAS Cougar… but I just found out that it is out of production. I “missed the train”, couldn’t buy it when it was available and now I can’t find it.
It has been replaced by the HOTAS Warthog, which looks like an excellent product, engineered to solve the Cougar’s notorious problems, but I wonder how well it can be adapted for flying with BMS 4.32.
The stick is identical, because in real life they basically put the F-16’s stick in the A-10C.
What worries me is the throttles.
First of all, can you mechanically link them together (or lock them) to make a “single big throttle”? This would be very useful for flying a single-engine aircraft like the F-16.
But the throttles are lacking all the very peculiar knobs and buttons of the Viper’s throttle.
Now, I see that there are some good Warthog profiles for BMS 4.32, but are there too many compromises?
Since I can’t replicate exactly the F16’s controls, which was my idea in the first place, would I be better off with the very interesting (and significantly cheaper) Saitek Pro Flight X-55?
I finish this long OP by saying that while my first love is always Falcon, I am planning to build a new system next year, and buy Flaming Cliffs 3 and A-10C, so this should be considered for my choice of the HOTAS.
Basically, the big question is: which one is more versatile to use with any aircraft/sim?
Thank you in advance, especially if you made it to the bottom of this post, since there are so many questions.
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The x55 doesn’t have a 4way on the stick where it should be (thumb) but the throttle has an extra hat (if you use the nipple as cursor) - thus I think it’s pretty good for the whole range of HOTAS functionality. Mine works fine, only wish all rotaries and throttle were Hall, as minor spikyness is noticeable. A good package for the price imo.
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Id like to just point out that you CAN replicate the F-16s controls, if you hunt around. Barring all else there are 3D printed Cougar throttles, but I got mine from eBay, 2 years ago.
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The x55 doesn’t have a 4way on the stick where it should be (thumb) but the throttle has an extra hat (if you use the nipple as cursor) - thus I think it’s pretty good for the whole range of HOTAS functionality. Mine works fine, only wish all rotaries and throttle were Hall, as minor spikyness is noticeable. A good package for the price imo.
The 4-way you mention would be the CMS? I looked at some pictures of the X-55 and it looks like there’s a simple button instead of a 4-way. The throttle is very nice, especially for the rotaries. But just so we’re clear (since i can’t find technical specs for the X-55), the stick is Hall, but everything else is not? Or not even the stick is Hall?
Anyway, the price seems very good to me, and I think that it’s more “general purpose” than the Warthog.
Id like to just point out that you CAN replicate the F-16s controls, if you hunt around. Barring all else there are 3D printed Cougar throttles, but I got mine from eBay, 2 years ago.
Yeah, the problem is that I’m not very good at hunting around and setting profiles. Same problem I had when setting up my Logitech G27. I’m a decent driver, in real life as well, but I can’t set the steering wheel without using other people’s profiles as a starting point.
You know, what is really driving me off the Warthog (and towards the X-55) is the lack of rotaries on the Warthog throttle.As for the 3D printed throttle, I don’t dare to ask how expensive it is…
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No, I mean that second hand Cougars come up for sale on eBay every few weeks. You can replicate the F-16s HARDWARE controls if you get a Cougar.
Problem is if you get a Cougar you pretty much need to mod the hardware to get it force sensing, which drives up the dollars.
The 3D printed throttles Ive seen for sale are prohibitively expensive, really. If you know anyone with such a printer you might have better luck in that regard.
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No, I mean that second hand Cougars come up for sale on eBay every few weeks. You can replicate the F-16s HARDWARE controls if you get a Cougar.
Problem is if you get a Cougar you pretty much need to mod the hardware to get it force sensing, which drives up the dollars.
The 3D printed throttles Ive seen for sale are prohibitively expensive, really. If you know anyone with such a printer you might have better luck in that regard.
Oh, I misunderstood your post. I din’t realise you were talking about second hand Cougars. Yes, my dream would be to perfectly replicate all the hardware controls, 100% like the original Viper.
But I never really thought about used Cougars because:
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I can’t find them here in Italy
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The Cougar’s potentiometers are not known for their reliability (to put it mildly)
Now, I’m a “hardware guy”, I build my own PCs, I took apart the pedal board of the G27 countless times and surely I would be able to mod the Cougar, but apart from the price issue, there’s again the issue of finding the mods to install.
Oh, how much I’d like to find a brand new Cougar, that has been sitting in a warehouse, forgotten. I would buy it in a heartbeat.
EDIT: Forgot about the 3D printer. Well, I don’t know anyone with such an “exotic” equipment, so that’s definitely out of the question.
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Well - Id in turn suggest replacing the pots on the cougar. FCC-3 is a pretty great mod for the stick, making it force sensing.
I have to agree on the pots though, when I got my cougar the throttle was completely stuffed, had to replace the pot. Not exactly hard to do with TM support to help me fortunately.
Up to you what you do with it I guess, I used an X-65F for some time and that worked well also. Probably my second preference after a modded cougar.
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Not too far from you I think? He seems ready to sell, maybe you can haggle!
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Well - Id in turn suggest replacing the pots on the cougar. FCC-3 is a pretty great mod for the stick, making it force sensing.
I have to agree on the pots though, when I got my cougar the throttle was completely stuffed, had to replace the pot. Not exactly hard to do with TM support to help me fortunately.
Up to you what you do with it I guess, I used an X-65F for some time and that worked well also. Probably my second preference after a modded cougar.
Yes, I know about the FCC mod (although I didn’t know about the third version). The problem is that the FCC-3 alone costs 330 €. And that’s just modding the stick. Then I would most likely have to replace the throttle pot, and possibly the rotaries pots… And I don’t know whether you can use some equivalent pots that you can find in an electronics store or you need specific pots. You see where this is going…
Not too far from you I think? He seems ready to sell, maybe you can haggle!
Nice find.
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Never flown falcon with the force sensing mod and it sounds like you have gone plenty of years without it as well, so shouldn’t be a make or break item. However, if you plan to fly twin engine AC then you should probably stick with a TQM set up for dual throttle options. There are a bunch of guys who use the Warthog stick w/ the cougar throttle.
I have recently purchased a used cougar and couldn’t be happier with it. I would like to try out the A-10 someday and will probably get the warthog when I do, but for now, the viper is a big enough handful. When I have another $500.00 to burn I might just jump in the hog!
Have heard that the X-55 is a decent stick and haven’t heard of any specific hardware problems, so if your looking for a more affordable option, this may work well for you. I have never used one, so I can’t give you any feedback on how it feels or flies.
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Never flown falcon with the force sensing mod and it sounds like you have gone plenty of years without it as well, so shouldn’t be a make or break item. However, if you plan to fly twin engine AC then you should probably stick with a TQM set up for dual throttle options. There are a bunch of guys who use the Warthog stick w/ the cougar throttle.
I have recently purchased a used cougar and couldn’t be happier with it. I would like to try out the A-10 someday and will probably get the warthog when I do, but for now, the viper is a big enough handful. When I have another $500.00 to burn I might just jump in the hog!
Have heard that the X-55 is a decent stick and haven’t heard of any specific hardware problems, so if your looking for a more affordable option, this may work well for you. I have never used one, so I can’t give you any feedback on how it feels or flies.
A bit off-topic. Believe it or not, I started flying at the age of 8 (in 1998 ) with the fantastic Jane’s F-15. I learned so much from that sim, basic flight and avionics concepts, and I also learned to be very gentle with the stick. The flight model is still excellent to this day, and if you slammed the stick around you would get nowhere (or in the ground, probably). At the time I had the worst stick known to man, without even a throttle. So yes, I’m used to high precision flying, such as air refueling, in both F-15 and Falcon (and trust me, it’s harder in F-15) with low precision sticks. Maybe this made me a better pilot, because I read a lot of times that pilots who couldn’t refuel were blaming the low sensitivity/precision/excessive deadzone…
Can you explain what you mean with “TQM setup”?
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Huh. I couldnt refuel, but I found out that it was because my stick was TOO sensitive. My first joystick was an X-65F and Ive quite the love for force sensing as a result…
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Huh. I couldnt refuel, but I found out that it was because my stick was TOO sensitive. My first joystick was an X-65F and Ive quite the love for force sensing as a result…
I looked at the X-65F, and I have to say that it’s very interesting, BUT: is it out of production as well? I found the page on Saitek’s website only via a Google search, and I can’t find a place anywhere in the world to buy it. Even amazon.com says "Currently unavailable. We don’t know when or if this item will be back in stock. "
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TQM=Throttle Quadrant Module.
Going from cheap stick (mine was a logitech extreme 3D pro) to HOTAS is going to be such an improvement that I believe you will be wow-ed by whatever you decide on! As much of an improvement as using head tracking vs. without. (IMO)
Good luck!
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TQM=Throttle Quadrant Module.
Going from cheap stick (mine was a logitech extreme 3D pro) to HOTAS is going to be such an improvement that I believe you will be wow-ed by whatever you decide on! As much of an improvement as using head tracking vs. without. (IMO)
Good luck!
You call the Extreme 3D Pro cheap, but you have no idea of what I was using at the time. Only two buttons (pickle and trigger), game port interface (DA-15 connector) and trim sliders for the stick. And no, they weren’t used to trim the actual aircraft, but the stick itself. The signal was always disturbed, with the need to recalibrate endlessly and the cross moving around a lot even with the stick completely untouched. Good old days…
Anyway, I can buy the X-55 from an Italian online shop for 199€. I’m more and more convinced that it’s the best solution, because even if I buy that Cougar for 280€, if it’s not already worn out, it will soon become. It’s not “if” but “when”, and then I would’ve spent 280€ for a beautiful looking hardware that’s good only for that: looking at it.
Also, like I said in the OP, I actually plan on buying at least Flaming Cliffs 3 eventually, so dual throttle would be very useful.
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I just want to point out that - while I have an X-55, and I do like it as a stick, it is not without it’s fault. Namely the ghosting of some buttons seeming to be pressed when they are not (most people have solved this with always running it through a powered USB, I believe). But the stick is still ‘young’ and I would be concerned about other glitches exposing themselves in time.
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Yeah, I read about that ghosting issue. There’s a whole thread on Eagle Dynamics’ forums. Do you have ghosting?
Aside from this, can you think of any other reason for not buying the X-55?
I really don’t know what to think. Perfection doesn’t exist, of course. So there will be compromises.
But I really need a HOTAS system now, and if I wait too much even this time around maybe these sticks will go out of production as well…
If I were Thrustmaster’s boss, I would greenlight a Cougar 2.0 immediately. Force sensing stick, and Hall sensors on everything else. Can you imagine? I would buy that for any price, and probably half of the gentlemen on this forum would buy it as well.
And who knows, maybe they’re working on something like that without saying anything to avoid killing the Warthog’s sales. A man can dream…
EDIT to avoid contiguous posts:
I found this on the X-55 knowledgebase: http://support.madcatz.com/Knowledgebase/Article/View/518/176/x-55-ghost-button-issue
Does the issue present itself only if you’re running TeamSpeak? If so, it’s not a problem for me.
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Yeah, I read about that ghosting issue. There’s a whole thread on Eagle Dynamics’ forums. Do you have ghosting?
I have seen the ghosting issue occur in the UI, it sometimes switches to button 160 when I have not hit anything on the stick.
This has never happened or affected me in combat.
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My two cents :
I had the same dilemma when I decided to invest in a HOTAS. I decided to go for the Warthog, and so far I am completely satisfied.
-> Warthog overall quality is excellent.
From what I read about the x-55, it is really not as the same level. Plus, my experience with a previous stick from Saitek was not good (throttle was drifting …)-> The warthog stick is way better for BMS, you can map all the real F-16 switches and hat. The X-55 lacks the CMS.
-> the software and scripting capacities are really really awesome.
A lot of scripts are available on the warthog section for custom functions. If you know how to play with all this, you can do wonders. Check out Morphine profiles and my scripts in the Warthog section.-> you can have a real “idle cutoff” mechanism, check out Morphine’s profile to implement this.
-> similarly, you can have an Afterburner detent.
-> the base of the throttle is full of switches, it allows you to avoid looking down in the pit for quite a lot of things.Bad things :
-> stick doesnt turn in the yaw axis.
So either you need pedals, or you use a workaround with the scripts. I did the latter, it works like a charm. I even have differential braking with only my Hotas & the script functions…-> not as much throttle rotarys as a Cougar or X-55. But most rotary on the F-16 throttle can be emulated with 2 buttons each.
I’d say go Warhog, the reliability and overall quality are worth it, and if you like to play with the scripts functions, you will love it.
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I have seen the ghosting issue occur in the UI, it sometimes switches to button 160 when I have not hit anything on the stick.
This has never happened or affected me in combat.
What button is 160 on the X-55? Just so I can have an idea of what could go wrong. Also, were you running TeamSpeak when the issue occurred?
My two cents :
I had the same dilemma when I decided to invest in a HOTAS. I decided to go for the Warthog, and so far I am completely satisfied.
-> Warthog overall quality is excellent.
From what I read about the x-55, it is really not as the same level. Plus, my experience with a previous stick from Saitek was not good (throttle was drifting …)-> The warthog stick is way better for BMS, you can map all the real F-16 switches and hat. The X-55 lacks the CMS.
-> the software and scripting capacities are really really awesome.
A lot of scripts are available on the warthog section for custom functions. If you know how to play with all this, you can do wonders. Check out Morphine profiles and my scripts in the Warthog section.-> you can have a real “idle cutoff” mechanism, check out Morphine’s profile to implement this.
-> similarly, you can have an Afterburner detent.
-> the base of the throttle is full of switches, it allows you to avoid looking down in the pit for quite a lot of things.Bad things :
-> stick doesnt turn in the yaw axis.
So either you need pedals, or you use a workaround with the scripts. I did the latter, it works like a charm. I even have differential braking with only my Hotas & the script functions…-> not as much throttle rotarys as a Cougar or X-55. But most rotary on the F-16 throttle can be emulated with 2 buttons each.
I’d say go Warhog, the reliability and overall quality are worth it, and if you like to play with the scripts functions, you will love it.
I HATE to play with the script functions. I’m pretty good with hardware, but hopeless with software.
About the build quality, I obviously knew that the Warthog would be superior (it has to be since it costs much more).
The lack of CMS for me is more acceptable than the complete lack of rotaries. Personal preferences, I guess. I think it should be possible to map the CMS on the throttle.
The detents are “sexy”, I have to admit. Anyway, the throttle of the X-55 has even more switches (and a 3-way mode selector), so I think it wins in that aspect.
Thank you for your opinion, and obviously thanks to every one who posted in this thread trying to help me.
EDIT: I looked at Morphine’s and Mud’s profiles, and while they’re certainly well made, they just don’t click with me. Not their fault, it’s the different configuration of the throttle.
On the other hand, i found this profile for the X-55 that looks very good, and a pretty close match to the F-16’s controls (except for the obvious fact that CMS is on the throttle and not on the stick)
Curious what you’ve assigned where - here’s my latest layout, always tweaking it in my head, trying it, never happy
I’ve mostly done directx bindings where possible - that makes profiles like that almost impossible to share because joystick numbers change, right? Or is there a way?
Cheers
programming info:
- all buttons directx mapped with exception of following
- TGL 4 Up: JFS Start, Shift J J Shift (1 second hold)
- TGL 4 Dn: Idle Detent, Alt I I Alt (1 second hold)
- Mode button: SimDeselectOverride, C, SimSelectSRMOverride D, SimSelectMRMOverride M
- SBK: AFBrakesToggle, Shift B B Shift
linky: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fn5zegz7rxu3b0o/FalconBMS.pr0
Now I am probably going to enter “paranoid mode” and search the web for all the issues of the X-55, but I’m about 90% positive on the X-55.
Having said that, if someone else who owns one of these two HOTAS systems wants to share their opinion, it would be very appreciated.