F22 Raptor Vs Euro Fighter
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It’s always interesting to see these types of threads… In talking with folks that do this stuff for a living the game has changed drastically and most if not all engagements will happen BVR and you will be dead before the merge. The lethality is much higher than it was 10 years ago.
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It’s always interesting to see these types of threads… In talking with folks that do this stuff for a living the game has changed drastically and most if not all engagements will happen BVR and you will be dead before the merge. The lethality is much higher than it was 10 years ago.
That depends largely on the Rules of Engagement, and the last handful of battles that have been fought with modern jet aircraft have been too restrictive to allow BVR combat to really take place, mostly requiring visual ID of the target before engaging.
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Otherwise, if contact is made where one particular airframe is in an advantageous position, the weapons utilized isn’t that important…which is why I stated “primarily”…However, like you mentioned, it’s true that different weapon systems shouldn’t be scoffed at, and can make up for a good deal, all things being neutral at the moment both fighters make contact with each other.
Interesting statements. I would be really interested to know how much a bad starting position can be overcome by having an all-aspect LOAL AAM with imaging seeker, like the Python 5 or the AIM-9X Block 2 + HMD? (R-73mod2 has LOAL?)
What about the following Gedankenexperiment: 3rd generation platform against 4th+/5th. 3rd has the above mentioned missile. 4th+/5th has only legacy AIM-9M or Python3. What would be a bad starting position for the 3rd gen fighter, in which it cannot engage the 4th+/5th fighter (except of course being engaged from 6o´clock low=no visual)?
If the 3rd gen has up-to-date avionics to detect the radar of the 4th+/5th fighter, then it knows where it is. It is just a question of spoting the enemy fighter and firing, isn´t? -
That depends largely on the Rules of Engagement, and the last handful of battles that have been fought with modern jet aircraft have been too restrictive to allow BVR combat to really take place, mostly requiring visual ID of the target before engaging.
Any in particular?
In Desert Storm and Allied Force there were no such restrictions for F-15C drivers as long as the ID matrix was met. -
Any in particular?
In Desert Storm and Allied Force there were no such restrictions for F-15C drivers as long as the ID matrix was met.But there were for the F-14s. They nailed a single MI-8, I think, because they could not go through the matrix without external input. The F-15C could. Of course, some Turkey drivers said later that they could not get any kills because the AWACS were USAF….but that is another story.
EDIT: That is a nice example of a superb fighter with the longest BVR arm in the whole western inventory, but was not allowed to use it due to ROE.
Were all F-15C´s engagement really BVR? My memory tells me they were not…there is somewhere a pdf with that info…
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But there were for the F-14s. They nailed a single MI-8, I think, because they could not go through the matrix without external input. The F-15C could. Of course, some Turkey drivers said later that they could not get any kills because the AWACS were USAF….but that is another story.
The F-14s didn’t have the software and systems to meet the ROE criteria and there were even claims the USAF E-3s called off F-14s in favour of F-15s……besides the point though regarding what was stated.
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Not really. If a F-14 was engaged, and there were no F-15Cs around, then it would have go to directly in WVR combat, since BVR shots were not allowed for him. Exaclty what Sharpe meant.
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Were all F-15C´s engagement really BVR? My memory tells me they were not……there is somewhere a pdf with that info…
Nope……never said they were…(read what I was replying too)…some were closer although actual ranges are not always given…one was an actual merge I think (need to check) IFF failed (well 2v1 so still not fair)
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Not really. If a F-14 was engaged, and there were no F-15Cs around, then it would have go to directly in WVR combat, since BVR shots were not allowed for him. Exaclty what Sharpe meant.
Yes really……as claimed by Navy drivers…Point being the F-14s did not have to engage and thus BVR engagements could and did happen
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Yes really……as claimed by Navy drivers…Point being the F-14s did not have to engage and thus BVR engagements could and did happen
Point accepted then. Is there any other example of ROE since Vietnam where BVR shots were not allowed? I can´t remember of any right now then….
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Point accepted then. Is there any other example of ROE since Vietnam where BVR shots were not allowed? I can´t remember of any right now then….
Gulf of Sidra incidents comes to mind, although it was not a full war on.
EDIT : the 1989 one did see BVR shots, unsucessfull (Sparrows…. :rolleyes: )
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Point accepted then. Is there any other example of ROE since Vietnam where BVR shots were not allowed? I can´t remember of any right now then….
According to Israeli research on the 1982 Lebanon War visual ID was a ROE requirement for F-15/F-16s……however there were a few AIM-7 BVR shots although unclear what criteria allowed this.
Similar to Vietnam…99% WVR however there were cases where F-4s were allowed to fire BVR where they flew ahead and it was known that no friendlies were airbourne over the North at the time. In 1972 some F-4s got Combat Tree (APX-81) and were allowed to fire on that basis…there is only a few cases of this happening…it seems pilots didn’t really trust the system.
Moving to research on Iran v Iraq in the 80s…Iran had TISEO on the F-4 and Combat Tree in F-4/F-14s (IIRC) so they often seemed to engage only on that basis (on their accounts)
TISEO was a long range camera basically…later USN F-14s had TCS and were able to Vis ID at range. If you look at F-16AMs on Baltic patrol this year they carry TGPs which can also give long range ID in suitable weather.
Today having a ROE that states you must Vis ID is of no use if the other guys don’t have that and you just get a missile in the face. In Nam you were faced with Cannon and AA-2s so Vis ID was less of an issue. In Sidra the bad guys had Export MiGs with rear aspect missiles. Today you cant screw around with something that can employ an all aspect weapon at range. As a side note it is claimed that platforms like AWACs and 5th Gen aircraft have have a lot more ways of Identifying aircraft than traditional 4th Gen jets sensors.
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Interesting statements. I would be really interested to know how much a bad starting position can be overcome by having an all-aspect LOAL AAM with imaging seeker, like the Python 5 or the AIM-9X Block 2 + HMD? (R-73mod2 has LOAL?)
What about the following Gedankenexperiment: 3rd generation platform against 4th+/5th. 3rd has the above mentioned missile. 4th+/5th has only legacy AIM-9M or Python3. What would be a bad starting position for the 3rd gen fighter, in which it cannot engage the 4th+/5th fighter (except of course being engaged from 6o´clock low=no visual)?
If the 3rd gen has up-to-date avionics to detect the radar of the 4th+/5th fighter, then it knows where it is. It is just a question of spoting the enemy fighter and firing, isn´t?There are many variables. The two missiles you mention have employment parameters that must be met before they can be successfully fired at the target. Regardless of what weapon systems are used, the pilot still has to have the situational awareness, and actual handling abilities to get into a position to use them.
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That’s right,let’s remember this is training,and training is the best way to learn the jets strong points and weak points.Also a a 5000 hour jet jock in an F-4E ,could potentially grease the 100 hour F22 jock,guns only…
@Netstat:Once again, videos of exercise kills make absolutely no sense when taken out of context. And by context I mean the setup, the rules and limitations etc. A defensive BFM for the Raptor and the Eurofighter in those vids will have them in the sights of their opponents almost immediately after the “Fight’s on” call. Were they limited in some way e.g. afterburner usage? What about aircraft configuration and weapons allowed?
These vids are good for reasons of national pride and marketing, targeted to people that don’t know how the Air force works. There is also a T-38 video out there gunning a Raptor, should we scrap the latter aircraft from the USAF inventory and replace them with the venerable training jet?Let’s get back on topic, which is, the flight models of the Eurofighter and F-22 in the sim.
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“If you are in the most advanced fighter on the planet, and you let someone get behind you, it´s not a jet problem, it`s pilot problem!” ― Major. John Wilson, F-35 Pilot
In that aircraft he will soon find out it can indeed be a jet problem.
https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/f-35-and-its-troubles/ -
my estimation in a theater of ops is that VID is always necessary(or other means of ID). However, asking here, if there is a no-fly-zone, is it possible to shoot BVR without any kind of ID?
The only AMRAAM employment ive seen in a vid was that MIG shooting on CNN,from ……8nm. I mean, why get so close -
“If you are in the most advanced fighter on the planet, and you let someone get behind you, it´s not a jet problem, it`s pilot problem!” ― Major. John Wilson, F-35 Pilot
In that aircraft he will soon find out it can indeed be a jet problem.
https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/f-35-and-its-troubles/What this guys says about BVR combat is nonsense. Never, ever, a missile has to pull 300 Gs to get a maneuvering AC. Against a guy pulling N Gs, a missile has to pull between N and 3N G, regardless of speed. This whole “missile should have same turn radius as target” is absolutely stupid.
And if you are not convinced :
http://www.jhuapl.edu/techdigest/td/td2901/palumbo_homing.pdf
Especially fig. 7. -
here more foot
[h=1]Eurofighter: Typhoon To Be More Agile, Deadly[/h]
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Not really. If a F-14 was engaged, and there were no F-15Cs around, then it would have go to directly in WVR combat, since BVR shots were not allowed for him. Exaclty what Sharpe meant.
Not exactly. In the book wings of fury there’s a story about a flight of F-14’s having a 4 ship of Iraqi Mirage F1’s bugged in TWS ready to launch with Phoenix. But F-14 crews weren’t used to working with USAF AWACS and there was miscommunication and they never got clearance to shoot. They had to switch to sparrow and STT lock which alerted the Mirages and they ran. They were later intercepted by F-15’s I believe.
There were a few reasons that the F-14 only had 1 kill in ODS. The main reason as mentioned was that the F-14 didn’t have NCTR, which was fixed with the F-14D. But too late for ODS. Other reasons were politics. USAF was jealous of the attention the NAVY got in the Libya engagements in the 80’s, so all the good CAP station were assigned to USAF (F-15) units. F-14’s mostly got escort missions. And also Iraq faced the F-14 during the Iran and Iraq war and they were scared to death of it. So as soon as an F-14 appeared in the area, the Iraqi’s ran. According to accounts of some F-14 pilots quite a few migs that were shot down by F-15’s were running from F-14’s.
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well, truth be told, its hard to shake off f-22 when its on the tail, but what I have noticed is f-22 bleeds a lot of air speed when using thrust vectoring at low speeds, thats how I could out turn f-22 a few times and get on its 6 o’ clock, Israel theater does not have any other craft that has thrust vectoring, a su-30 MKI would been good, as Indian air force has su -30 MKI and I have seen the maneuverability of su-30MKI in person, esp LOOP-TUMBLE-YAW, even f-22 cant do it, SU-30 MKI would be a deadly adversary in close combat.
F-22 was made to out turn, out fight any aircraft in the world, and it kinda does, but BMS does not have competitive jet to kill F-22.
Lastly a plane is as good as its pilot.