F22 Raptor Vs Euro Fighter
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my estimation in a theater of ops is that VID is always necessary(or other means of ID). However, asking here, if there is a no-fly-zone, is it possible to shoot BVR without any kind of ID?
The only AMRAAM employment ive seen in a vid was that MIG shooting on CNN,from ……8nm. I mean, why get so close -
“If you are in the most advanced fighter on the planet, and you let someone get behind you, it´s not a jet problem, it`s pilot problem!” ― Major. John Wilson, F-35 Pilot
In that aircraft he will soon find out it can indeed be a jet problem.
https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/f-35-and-its-troubles/What this guys says about BVR combat is nonsense. Never, ever, a missile has to pull 300 Gs to get a maneuvering AC. Against a guy pulling N Gs, a missile has to pull between N and 3N G, regardless of speed. This whole “missile should have same turn radius as target” is absolutely stupid.
And if you are not convinced :
http://www.jhuapl.edu/techdigest/td/td2901/palumbo_homing.pdf
Especially fig. 7. -
here more foot
[h=1]Eurofighter: Typhoon To Be More Agile, Deadly[/h]
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Not really. If a F-14 was engaged, and there were no F-15Cs around, then it would have go to directly in WVR combat, since BVR shots were not allowed for him. Exaclty what Sharpe meant.
Not exactly. In the book wings of fury there’s a story about a flight of F-14’s having a 4 ship of Iraqi Mirage F1’s bugged in TWS ready to launch with Phoenix. But F-14 crews weren’t used to working with USAF AWACS and there was miscommunication and they never got clearance to shoot. They had to switch to sparrow and STT lock which alerted the Mirages and they ran. They were later intercepted by F-15’s I believe.
There were a few reasons that the F-14 only had 1 kill in ODS. The main reason as mentioned was that the F-14 didn’t have NCTR, which was fixed with the F-14D. But too late for ODS. Other reasons were politics. USAF was jealous of the attention the NAVY got in the Libya engagements in the 80’s, so all the good CAP station were assigned to USAF (F-15) units. F-14’s mostly got escort missions. And also Iraq faced the F-14 during the Iran and Iraq war and they were scared to death of it. So as soon as an F-14 appeared in the area, the Iraqi’s ran. According to accounts of some F-14 pilots quite a few migs that were shot down by F-15’s were running from F-14’s.
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well, truth be told, its hard to shake off f-22 when its on the tail, but what I have noticed is f-22 bleeds a lot of air speed when using thrust vectoring at low speeds, thats how I could out turn f-22 a few times and get on its 6 o’ clock, Israel theater does not have any other craft that has thrust vectoring, a su-30 MKI would been good, as Indian air force has su -30 MKI and I have seen the maneuverability of su-30MKI in person, esp LOOP-TUMBLE-YAW, even f-22 cant do it, SU-30 MKI would be a deadly adversary in close combat.
F-22 was made to out turn, out fight any aircraft in the world, and it kinda does, but BMS does not have competitive jet to kill F-22.
Lastly a plane is as good as its pilot. -
With the kind of countermeasures/maneuver that we do and evade missiles, its likely that f-22 would have get into some dirty dogfights, even in real world.
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Serious question. Where is all of this information coming from (I.e. credible source…not some guy with a blog that likes to hear himself talk) or is it just flight sim jockey speculation.
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Sooooooo……back to the flight models in BMS? Which was the whole reason I clicked on this thread
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What this guys says about BVR combat is nonsense. Never, ever, a missile has to pull 300 Gs to get a maneuvering AC. Against a guy pulling N Gs, a missile has to pull between N and 3N G, regardless of speed. This whole “missile should have same turn radius as target” is absolutely stupid.
What that guy Picard578 says about 90% of the time is clueless nonsense and I am surprised that it is being quoted on here. The site may look presentable but Picard is an amateur blogger with a very poor understanding of aerodynamics and aerial combat.
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What that guy Picard578 says about 90% of the time is clueless nonsense and I am surprised that it is being quoted on here. The site may look presentable but Picard is an amateur blogger with a very poor understanding of aerodynamics and aerial combat.
What are some solid sources to read on aircraft capabilities and the subject of BFM?
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What are some solid sources to read on aircraft capabilities and the subject of BFM?
As a basic start F-16 COMBAT AIRCRAFT FUNDAMENTALS is in your BMS docs folder e.g. C:\Falcon BMS 4.32\Docs\Operational Manuals
also recommend:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fighter-Combat-Manoeuvring-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599
You could also search for Basic ACM by AS on here….adds to the F-16 fundamentals above
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As a basic start F-16 COMBAT AIRCRAFT FUNDAMENTALS is in your BMS docs folder e.g. C:\Falcon BMS 4.32\Docs\Operational Manuals
also recommend:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fighter-Combat-Manoeuvring-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599
You could also search for Basic ACM by AS on here….adds to the F-16 fundamentals above
Thanks. Im sure ill find plenty if info on this forum.
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ROE aside the new doctrine as of today and not the 1990s is you won’t know who is shooting at you and who is designating you either. You could be designated by a F-22 but shot at by a ship, helicopter, drone, whatever. The information being shared by 5 Gen aircraft is the game changer including existing airframes being that are being updated. As I mentioned the game has changed dramatically. As for an FM in BMS regarding the F-22 I’m sure it’s a rough guess at this point.
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What are some solid sources to read on aircraft capabilities and the subject of BFM?
http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/16v5.pdf Chapter 4 is one of my favorite references.
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http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/16v5.pdf Chapter 4 is one of my favorite references.
Too cool,thanks…Very in-depth……I kept scrolling looking for classification markings!
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Today having a ROE that states you must Vis ID is of no use if the other guys don’t have that and you just get a missile in the face. In Nam you were faced with Cannon and AA-2s so Vis ID was less of an issue. In Sidra the bad guys had Export MiGs with rear aspect missiles. Today you cant screw around with something that can employ an all aspect weapon at range. As a side note it is claimed that platforms like AWACs and 5th Gen aircraft have have a lot more ways of Identifying aircraft than traditional 4th Gen jets sensors.
Well, most 4th gen jets do not have any real ELINT capability. You have any emissions at all, its possible to narrow down what you are. If you can be narrowed down to a hostile type, thats not good for you. AWACS do have more options for IDing contacts than 4th gen jets. Of course, there is tradeoffs there. AWACS cant really tell a radar contacts altitude to more than the closest 10,000 feet, for instance. Nor can they VID.
As far as the ROE, whether it is of use is not what determines whether you have to follow it or not. The guys drafting the ROE have to work that tradeoff - balancing the possibility of shooting down something that they should not have, against the possibility that being too restrictive could put their guys in dangerous situations where they cannot employ weapons with minimum risk. If you go into contingency ops, you dont really expect clearance to employ BVR. If you go into a shooting war with China, not having that ability will get you and your squadron killed.
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Well, most 4th gen jets do not have any real ELINT capability. You have any emissions at all, its possible to narrow down what you are. If you can be narrowed down to a hostile type, thats not good for you. AWACS do have more options for IDing contacts than 4th gen jets. Of course, there is tradeoffs there. AWACS cant really tell a radar contacts altitude to more than the closest 10,000 feet, for instance. Nor can they VID.
As far as the ROE, whether it is of use is not what determines whether you have to follow it or not. The guys drafting the ROE have to work that tradeoff - balancing the possibility of shooting down something that they should not have, against the possibility that being too restrictive could put their guys in dangerous situations where they cannot employ weapons with minimum risk. If you go into contingency ops, you dont really expect clearance to employ BVR. If you go into a shooting war with China, not having that ability will get you and your squadron killed.
This short series might be of some interest
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Thanks, I’ll check it out.
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I wonder how many fighter combat vets read these forums and think, “Man these guys know nothing of what they speak” and just laugh.
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I went to Red Flag in Vegas with my squadron and the pilots said that when the Raptors were in the air no one had a chance. They said the Raptors would appear out of nowhere and get several kills before anyone knew what was going on. Then disappear and be nowhere to be found. The pilots would get this funny grin on their faces when they talked about it and all anyone could talk about was if anyone in Red Flag had took out a Raptor. Every squadron was obsessed with taking out a Raptor. The pilots laughed as if it was a joke because the Raptors were so superior. The Raptors also rarely went up.