4.33 Issues (Known or not)
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regarding the flaps for the A to D models, you can not controll the flaps. it is an f16 flcs so auto flaps. maybe with the E and F models you can as they still use the old fm.
i dont think you can dump fuel in 4.33.
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I dump fuel just fine in 433, each click 1000 lbs, F-18 (model?).
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rgr, maybe I was wrong then. Of course the implementation is poor. There was at time in F4 when you could open the fuel dump and it would just flow out. Some coder decided this was bad and removed it (because the viper didn’t have it).
What you are seeing was setup for testing I believe (testing various fuel loads). I don’t believe you see the fueling flowing out like the old days?
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Ok this is an interesting one I have not seen before. My buddy and I flew a day 1 mission of a new campaign on a DEAD mission with a pair of F-16CM-40s. I was loaded with 8 SDB and wing tanks and he had 2 AGM-88 and wing tanks. Both of us got the same reaction from the aircraft with the different stores. As soon as my 8 SDBs were away and as soon as his two HARMs were away we got the Stores Config light even though we both still had wing tanks on the aircraft and there was gas still in them. Page 202 of T.O. BMS1F-16CM-1 still talks like this is a Cat 3 situation (which is was I would expect and how 4.32 behaved) so the question is was this an intentional change or possibly a bug?
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I assume AA weapons where 4 aim120 or 2 aim120 and 2 aim 9 ?
With 2 370 tanks that’s CAT I -
Thats a CAT I loadout there.
Edit: Sniped by Leech!
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I assume AA weapons where 4 aim120 or 2 aim120 and 2 aim 9 ?
With 2 370 tanks that’s CAT IIsnt 4 AIM-120s and 2 TK370s still CAT III?
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No
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Ok well this is different than in 4.32 and I don’t see where the manuals talk about it being a Cat 1 versus a Cat 3. Yes we had AAMs on board. 3 AIM 120C and 1 AIM-9X.
From Page 202 of BMS1F-16CM-1
“CAT I is the least limiting position and is intended for a clean configuration (centreline and A-A weapons can be carried).”
“CAT III is the most limiting position and is intended to protect the aircraft from departure when carrying heavier loads on the wing stations (fuel tanks, A-G bombs, etc).”
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I assume AA weapons where 4 aim120 or 2 aim120 and 2 aim 9 ?
With 2 370 tanks that’s CAT IIsnt 4 AIM-120s and 2 TK370s still CAT III?
No
Actually, the BMS loadout UI disagrees. It reckons AIM-120s on 1,2,8 and 9, and TK370s on 4 and 6, is a CAT III loadout. It transitions to CAT I with 3 AIM-120s or less.
Ok well this is different than in 4.32 and I don’t see where the manuals talk about it being a Cat 1 versus a Cat 3. Yes we had AAMs on board. 3 AIM 120C and 1 AIM-9X.
From Page 202 of BMS1F-16CM-1
“CAT I is the least limiting position and is intended for a clean configuration (centreline and A-A weapons can be carried).”
“CAT III is the most limiting position and is intended to protect the aircraft from departure when carrying heavier loads on the wing stations (fuel tanks, A-G bombs, etc).”
I cant see it in the manual either. I do note that the Category of a loadout is now displayed on the loadout screen though. I would recommend before flight, checking the carriage limits, and the limits of your downloadings.
I would note that IRL, wing tanks do not make you CAT III automatically. The F-16 v F-35 dogfight some months back was against an F-16 configured with wing tanks - it was also a CAT I, and IIRC, 8.5G bird.
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Actually, the BMS loadout UI disagrees. It reckons AIM-120s on 1,2,8 and 9, and TK370s on 4 and 6, is a CAT III loadout. It transitions to CAT I with 3 AIM-120s or less.
I cant see it in the manual either. I do note that the Category of a loadout is now displayed on the loadout screen though. I would recommend before flight, checking the carriage limits, and the limits of your downloadings.
I would note that IRL, wing tanks do not make you CAT III automatically. The F-16 v F-35 dogfight some months back was against an F-16 configured with wing tanks - it was also a CAT I, and IIRC, 8.5G bird.
This doesn’t jive with my experience from my incentive flights. The pilot left the switch in Cat 1 so we could attempt 9G turns and we had a Stores Config light the entire time. Those load outs were CATM 9 L/M on Sta 1/9 and wing tanks on 4/6. Guess we would need a RL F-16 pilot to weigh in on this matter.
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This doesn’t jive with my experience from my incentive flights. The pilot left the switch in Cat 1 so we could attempt 9G turns and we had a Stores Config light the entire time. Those load outs were CATM 9 L/M on Sta 1/9 and wing tanks on 4/6. Guess we would need a RL F-16 pilot to weigh in on this matter.
Note that in the real jet, there exist loadouts that are cleared for CAT I operation, but which the MMC thinks should be CAT III, and operation with these loadouts and the switch in CAT I will trigger the Stores Config Caution Light.
EDIT: you definitely didnt also have a centerline tank, did you? that loadout with CATM 9s on the wingtips and wing tanks should be a CAT I, 9G loadout. The MMC should think its CAT I too, so it shouldnt trigger the light. Unless the pilot loaded incorrect SMS data, but that seems unlikely for a simple loadout like that.
Having the centerline tank, the wing tanks, and wingtip CATM9s, is still a 9G loadout (again assuming the tanks are empty), but its CAT III. The SMS will think its CAT III too.
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Note that in the real jet, there exist loadouts that are cleared for CAT I operation, but which the MMC thinks should be CAT III, and operation with these loadouts and the switch in CAT I will trigger the Stores Config Caution Light.
EDIT: you definitely didnt also have a centerline tank, did you? that loadout with CATM 9s on the wingtips and wing tanks should be a CAT I, 9G loadout. The MMC should think its CAT I too, so it shouldnt trigger the light. Unless the pilot loaded incorrect SMS data, but that seems unlikely for a simple loadout like that.
Having the centerline tank, the wing tanks, and wingtip CATM9s, is still a 9G loadout (again assuming the tanks are empty), but its CAT III. The SMS will think its CAT III too.
Nope. A three bagger setup is very rare to see flown in the USAF. Mainly on long cross country hops. The two situations you would normally see on the flight line are wing bags for A-G training/ops or centerline only for A-A. The AF also doesn’t get into re-configuring of aircraft to suit incentive flights as well. If the bird was configured for A-G training at the time (wing bags) that is what you got to work with.
I’m going to be close to Luke AFB in a few weeks. I’ll hafta swing by there and go through the manuals they have concerning loadout limitations and see what the real books say.
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Can I ask if you ever worked the flight line at Kunsan? If so, how often did they have AA flights with wing tanks? Did you ever see an AG loadout which did not use wing tanks?
In a related note, I see that BMS puts wing tanks as being limited to 8.5G dry, instead of 9G.
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Can I ask if you ever worked the flight line at Kunsan?
Yup I was at Kunsan from Feb 89 to Feb 90. They still had block 25 or 30 aircraft back then.
If so, how often did they have AA flights with wing tanks? Did you ever see an AG loadout which did not use wing tanks?
I cannot say for certain about A-A training with A-G loaded birds as that could easily happen with them leaving the switch in Cat 1. A-G birds without wing tanks doesn’t happen though.
In a related note, I see that BMS puts wing tanks as being limited to 8.5G dry, instead of 9G.
This is why I mentioned that we still had gas in the wing tanks. We weren’t dry yet. That was the first thing I did when I saw the Stores Config light pop up was to look down at the gas gauge. Still was north of 8000 pounds at the time.
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4 AA missiles + 2 370 tanks is a CAT I load.
When the wing tanks empty, the only thing that changes is a increase of the G limit. -
4 AA missiles + 2 370 tanks is a CAT I load.
When the wing tanks empty, the only thing that changes is a increase of the G limit.Is this an issue with my install, or with 4.33?
Im not arguing that anything other than G limit changes when the tanks empty. I do think that BMS’ limit of 8.5G for empty wing tanks should be 9.0G instead. I dont think wing tanks on their own should be CAT III. I do think that 6 AIM-9s, two wing tanks and a centerline jammer should be CAT I. I think 4 AIM-120s and two wing tanks should be CAT I, but that the MMC should consider them CAT III and that it should have a STORES CONFIG caution lit. Same goes for 4 AIM-120s on their own IMO.
EDIT: Question - is the loadout screen meant to indicate the correct loadout category to use, or the loadout category that the MMC thinks is correct? If the latter, then the last half of my above statement matches up with how 4.33 works. In fact given that the AIM-9 loadout I described is CAT I in 4.33, it seems most all of it matches up, aside from the 8.5 vice 9.0 G limit for dry wing tanks.
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The screen shot store limit data is constant with the real manual.
8.5G limit for 2 empty tanks 370 tanks ( that is what the manufacturer recommends)For a 300 tank the G limit is 7 for full and 9 for empty.
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9 G for empty 300 tank with 2 aim120 and 2 aim9
8.5 G for empty 300 tank with 4 aim120BMS is again constant with those configurations too,
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I agree on the 300 gallon tank. Its just the 370s that I had thought otherwise on. Obviously its a very complex thing to model.