AV-8B Harrier nozzle control up side down?
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OK, I think I get it. The fact that the lever can be on either side of the stop doesn’t mean it’s being used as a stop from both directions.
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I’m still confused when one would limit how small a nozzle angle one would use by putting the stop on the forward side of the lever. I am at some high nozzle angle (lever aft) and push the lever forward to the stop. When would I do that?
RVL…Rolling Vertical Landing, or SL - Slow Landing. Again, you have to think of the nozzles like flaps - in that case you only want “so much” or “not less than”, and again that’s dependent on gross weight; think - too heavy for hover, field too short for CL (Conventional Landing) rollout. Once again, pre-planed prior to getting into the jet. I can’t stress how important gross weight is to VSTOL operations enough.
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Iirc you have to lift over the STO stop when going nozzles down and can push over the STO stop when going nozzles aft. The surfaces are beveled going one direction and angled the other. There is a plate that has a screw in it that is adjusted to stop the lever near 90 called hover stop and you have to lift up to go more than 90. The lever has a spring on it in the throttle quad iirc. I noticed the harrier in BMS doesn’t have the engine performance panel. Also, The water switch is not there and is instead a hook switch. In the harrier the engine performance panel is really important because it is a one stop shop for the most important readings, especially when in a hover. When turning up the harrier you get in a habit of looking at the engine performance panel and although I haven’t messed with it in BMS I think it would be strange to be in the harrier and resist that habit. We look at that panel more than anything else. That is why it’s placed so close to the HUD. Is water modeled in BMS?
I haven’t looked, but I doubt the VSTOL Master Mode HUD presentation is modeled either. There’s also some engine stuff in the HUD in VSTOL MM. As I recall the STO stop generally got moved out of the way during climbout (nozzles “free”) and positioned for landing on the downwind, but that may well be pilot preference in cockpit discipline.
What “my guys” used to tell me was that once they were up and away - “throttle goes into the corner, and feet go flat on the floor”. I once got the opportunity to fly the Night Attack Harrier trainer at MCAS Yuma and found that once I got over my initial mistakes with the nozzles (after I nearly lost the jet “slaming” them around too hard) that this was exactly how I ended up flying…I never touched/changed the power unless I was in the landing pattern, and controlled speed with my nose for the most part, zooming around at 200 AGL. The operators were pretty impressed by my CL skills - which they told me is actually the hardest way to land the airplane…I wasn’t interested in touching that nozzle lever again, so I was just doing what I know how to do!
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Oh started some big discussion
Yes Frederf, that’s exactly the video I’ve seen on youtube. And Stevie, that’s the picture I built my nozzle-control after. I was really shocked to see that the nozzle control in BMS works opposed, after a few hours of building my throttle console. But it seems to be wrong in BMS. Something for the todo-list if a new update appears Hope that new updates will appear, since the current situation makes me very nervous about the future of BMS.
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As I recall the STO stop generally got moved out of the way during climbout (nozzles “free”) and positioned for landing on the downwind, but that may well be pilot preference in cockpit discipline.
Yeah, the STO stop was usually not used unless on the boat or training for the boat. Most of the time in the states we worked on weapons systems and wing lifted quals. When we would get close to a deployment we would start to see STO and vertical landings. Then we would go to Bogue field where they practice landings and TO’s with a representation of a flight deck painted on the ground. There is also a tower like the one on the boat so they can get qualified to direct the harrier’s landing on the boat and grade their landings. From what I know the STO was used just for STOs and sometimes slow rolling landings and mostly on the boat. As you know it can be moved all the way aft so that it is out of the way.
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I haven’t looked, but I doubt the VSTOL Master Mode HUD presentation is modeled either.
It would be cool to have the JPT and H2O modeled. Having to pay attention to water consumption and JPT and having the exhaust turn black when water is on would be great.
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Yeah, the STO stop was usually not used unless on the boat or training for the boat. Most of the time in the states we worked on weapons systems and wing lifted quals. When we would get close to a deployment we would start to see STO and vertical landings. Then we would go to Bogue field where they practice landings and TO’s with a representation of a flight deck painted on the ground. There is also a tower like the one on the boat so they can get qualified to direct the harrier’s landing on the boat and grade their landings. From what I know the STO was used just for STOs and sometimes slow rolling landings and mostly on the boat. As you know it can be moved all the way aft so that it is out of the way.
I think because of the elevation and takeoff weights we were operating at doing nozzle assisted takeoffs were pretty routine. Or maybe I should say density altitude…being a desert operator we were hot and high. There’s (was?) a practice deck down in Yuma someplace that folks could shoot, but most of what I was involved with had the jets pretty loaded and so nozzle assist was routine, vertical ops were generally reserved for winchester RTB or maintenance press-ups. Lots of SLs, RVL, CLs otherwise.
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It would be cool to have the JPT and H2O modeled. Having to pay attention to water consumption and JPT and having the exhaust turn black when water is on would be great.
…and engine over temp. That - and blowing your tires for not getting off the hot spot in short order, or spending too much time in the hover - seen that. In fact, I’ve seen that happen a fair time post landing, but only once…jet came in, brake checked, chocked. Later post-shutdown a Maintainer was heading up a ladder with a replacement HUD over his shoulder when the main tires just up and blew. Never really got an explanation as to how that could have happened.
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Never really got an explanation as to how that could have happened.
Yeah. blowing the mains often gets the face palm. It happens a lot to new pilots and turn quals when they are on the ground with the nozzles down. When we certify a new low power we always tell them that they can only have nozzles down for a few minutes, then they need to go aft to cool the mains down. At about 10 degrees is the sweet spot to blow the LP cool air onto the mains after getting them hot. I remember seeing some dumb ass looks on people’s faces when they went low rider from blowing the mains. Most of the time they would either go out there and help change the mains or buy the guys some beer and pizza. The MLG tires on a harrier have safety valves in them filled with a wax/plastic like substance that melts a bit before the tire explodes or the rubber tire melts. So that is what you’re seeing when the tires go flat without a pop or a hole in the tire. Even though the tires are filled with nitrogen they can get so hot that they will explode. The force those tires have when they explode is not safe in any way. Some of the crusty old guys told me the tire doesn’t fail, the rim does and can send parts of the metal rim flying for hundreds of feet with enough force to kill someone. That is why they put the safety valves with a wax like substance in it.
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Yeah - that’s what I was thinking…fuse plugs blew. In this case it was some half hour after shutdown though, so it was really unexpected. We used to have a gold painted boot that the pilots would pass around whenever someone blew tires braking, or did something generally stupid with a jet. The gold boot had to sit on the guy’s desk until the next guy did something stupid…sometimes it could get hard to get rid of.
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If the plug goes from hot brakes then it can take a little while for the heat to migrate into the rims where it melts the plug.
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….hmmmnnn…-406 hydro-mech?
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Close. -408 powerplant and powerline mech. Engine, fuel/drop tanks, oil, H2O, tires/wheels, nozzles and RCS, bleed air, turn qual, QA CDI, daily’s & T/A’s and work with the other CDI’s QAR’s from other shops on the other inspections. And if there is something that needs to be done that isn’t clearly designated to a shop, it always lands in powerlines MAF’s. For better and for worse we make or break the squadron’s readiness. I was in when we were really busy and it was all work and no play. We had just started being mandated to create MARSOC’s so we could join the JSOC because the DOD wanted to set aside their best units. With the Marines that’s not very necessary because nearly every unit can cut it in the JSOC, but we were chosen with a couple others to be in the MARSOC and JSOC which unfortunately made us one of the few units that had the quals to join the JSOC. It meant being overworked and over deployed but we got all the lightning pods and JDAMS before the others. I miss the camaraderie and the challenge but working over 90 hours a week with no holidays in some of the crappiest places on Earth sucked, and swinging wings and changing engines on an LHD in high seas can get interesting. We never got much of a break. When we weren’t deployed we were at red flag or El Centro or Yuma. We were the guys doing the Harrier Carrier, where we cross decked onto the Bataan and joined another Harrier squadron after the HMM and all the helos except a couple SAR birds left. That was a crazy busy flight deck. Very dangerous.
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Ha…the “Harrier Carrier”…and I thought I was the only one that called them that!
I like to say I was “passing ammo” back when…involved in the original DECS integration on the -406 (because I had some previous experience with engines), and later the -408 in the Night Attack. I think while you were deployed I was running back and forth to Yuma, helping VMFA 214 transition into the then new Night Attack jet (from the A-4M, I think…dang, I’m old). I also had responsibility for integration of the EMS and DRU (and a lot of other stuff…) and got to work under far better conditions and out of harm’s way, but spent some long nights (particularly during moon phase) briefing sorties at 0200 and on into the wee hours for two weeks out of each month doing night work…for about four years, then I moved on.
In addition to my mission planning and flight ops duties I did also spend a good deal of launch time standing in front of fully armed (live gun/live rockets, live etc.) turning jets in the dark, holding FLIR boresight targets…worrying about being vaporized in the dark and not missed till dawn in the case of any stray voltage…does that count any?
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This BMS video certainly shows nozzle markings increasing aft. The lever appears to animate incorrectly:
This startup sequence has SOOOO many things wrong with it…starting with the JFS coming on when the fuel cock is lowered.
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The DECS were interesting. When we put in new throttle quads we had to calibrate the DECU’s. The FMU’s were an incredible pain the ass too. That jet is one of the most difficult machines to work on. Since you mention how you would stand holding FLIR boresight targets, that reminds me of when we were in Al Asad one of our birds had an electrical malfunction and the number 2 fired off an AA missile at the lead and the lead had to do evasive maneuvers during takeoff. Thankfully it didn’t hit the lead. So, anytime someone is standing in front of live weapons it is dangerous.
I remember doing checks during a low power and I think it was the FLIR or it could have been the lightning pod, but I was looking around with it and I passed over a fuel truck and I could see the fuel sloshing around inside the tank. I couldn’t believe that I could see the fuel level in the truck. Thinking back, I am guessing that I was seeing the temp difference between the tank below the fuel line and tank above. It was so sensitive that it looked like I was looking through the walls of the tank.
One thing I wish I would have done while I was in was get into the flight ops a little more, but they worked us so hard that we often didn’t even have time to sleep. Now I have been using BMS to get my fill of the F-16 and hopefully get into some multiplayer stuff after I get my flight skills up to par. I learned the jet in good detail and I could R&R an engine by myself then do the low power checks as long as I had a couple bodies to guide the wing and engine when I lifted it out of the airframe. Once I got proficient at doing the engine R&R by myself, doing AVI and airframes jobs I turned into the guy that did the stuff that nobody except the old timers had done before, and they weren’t about to start wrenching on A/C again just because no NCO’s and below had done it before. I remember coming in one day and they sent me out the jet to replace the cold nozzle chains. The chains by themselves aren’t that hard but you have numerous levers on the SAMSU and butterfly valve that are extremely important when calibrating them because they control the RCS system in relation to the nozzle position and control the firing of the gun. I got out there and the guy working on it had a scared look on his face and he said he couldn’t do it. He couldn’t handle the stress of completely replacing the chains which are integrally tied to the RCS system. I’m kind of have an obsession with detail and some of the guys in my shop used to get pissed because I would read all the pubs and point out all the crap we did wrong. I figured out that we used the engine sling incorrectly by using the setting which was for a non dressed engine instead of a dressed engine so when it was going in and out someone would have to put weight on the hot section to keep it from binding. After a while they realized that if anything new needed to be done and no one knew how to do it, that I was the guy because I would read all the pubs and make it happen.
I miss the challenge of that A/C but don’t miss the BS and how the hardest workers were rewarded with more work while the turds would be fap’ed out to some cushy duty because they couldn’t cut it. The boat is very interesting too. It is a once in a lifetime experience being in a harrier unit on a boat. We rule the flight deck and the entire boat for the most part and the new guys in our unit and the other new HMM Marines are blown away. It was funny listening to the older navy guys teaching the new sailors that once the harriers land that it’s no more fun and games, the flight deck gets deadly real quick. The new guys would look so scared and they would hang out in the shop and hanger bay with the rumbling of the jets landing above them while they listened to the navy talk about how dangerous it was to go up there. Most personnel were not allowed on or anywhere near the flight deck during flight ops. I saw several people get rag dolled by landing harriers and just when they thought they had it down, a 53 would come in and blow them off their feet. One guy fell of the boat. I don’t think he was found. I also remember going through 80-100 foot seas and watching water spouts fill my view in front of us. Being sent out on the flight deck to pull a 15 hour or a 30 hour during a huge storm is pretty insane. Those ships are ridiculous though. They can take a serious beating. The light show that the static electricity made on the helo’s is mesmerizing too. Also, one time I had a GTS explode on me when I was starting the jet and it shot the most insane fireball out the hot nozzles that it lit up the flight deck like it was day time. The guys told me when I got out that it was the biggest fireball they had ever seen. Throttle off-manual fuel shutoff-batts off and hope the fire ball goes out.
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In many of the non-F-16 cockpits I have had a giggle or a frown about what that particular pit developer associated which switch with what callback. It’s of course a matter of creative interpretation but I would do a few differently. At least it isn’t as silly as for example an ArmA A-10 mod that requires the pilot oxygen on in order for the engines to turn over.
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…you’re taking me way back, Viking…throttle cals, muff checks, press-ups for engine cals, draping myself over the canopy to watch the cockpit ops, walking down the wing…I think the funniest thing we ever caught on FLIR (NAV FLIR) video was a guy who thought he was behind a barrel and out of view taking a leak during a night launch…jus’ 'cause it’s dark don’t mean we can’t see ya! It was either that, or the time we sent a gal out to hold the FLIR target and all of the HUD thermal cues ganged up on her…er…and clustered around…well, she never did that again after she saw the video…
The jet I had charge of once (actually twice) caught fire inflight, at night - a wire bundle up under the portside wing root smoked and the pilot ended up skidding the jet down the runway on the gun packs - twice. Total electrical failures both times so no way to tell how heavy he was, no way to get the gear down…smooth slide, didn’t touch the nose or tail on the runway. We just craned the jet up and blew the gear down, towed it into the hangar for repair, put strakes on it and went flying a couple weeks later. Then it happened again…to the same guy. He got an Air Medal for the first time he brought it back. I do miss working with Marines.
I’ve only ever been out on a CV (a big one) for a short trip - just a week on the USS Lincoln to observe some CQ training ops. I did get to go out onto the LSO plat and the roof during flight ops and even stand under a wing during a cat shot…you guys don’t get paid enough, seriously. I remember stepping out from behind the island into the wind over deck…wow. Damn right it’s dangerous out there. Much respect for your service.
Biggest mishap I’ve ever seen was a student that shelled out of a T-2 on short final at NAS Kingsville…60ft fireball, and I was on the flight ramp when the jet piled in. Kid was ok, but I bet his flying career ended there.
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In many of the non-F-16 cockpits I have had a giggle or a frown about what that particular pit developer associated which switch with what callback. It’s of course a matter of creative interpretation but I would do a few differently. At least it isn’t as silly as for example an ArmA A-10 mod that requires the pilot oxygen on in order for the engines to turn over.
What gets me is when things appear to be modeled or labeled right and someone goes some other way just out of lack of familiarity or research…errrrggggh…I like things real.