Livrot Mic Command - Preview Release
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Dude, check your support email and if you have any follow up questions, post it there.
I need another LAN key because I used one on my main PC, one for the laptop, and the third one on my slave PC. When the slave PC got wiped and installed Win7 (it was on Win10 previously), LAN won’t accept the old key even though the hardware is the same, just different OS. I need a LMC key because of the bug found in your database. The Livrot website still shows that I have 0 License key downloads remaining for both programs.
The problem with your support setup is that I don’t hear from you for ages after I send my reply…. I don’t know if you’ve read it or what. Same thing for your Google groups. At least here on the forums, I can see when you were last online however, that only makes things more annoying as I’m still waiting for your reply to my support email. That long post you just did, why are you asking me all that here on the thread but I’ve had no word from you on the support email?
Anyway, let’s continue this on the support email please.
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WARNING
A serious bug may harm your profile(s):
After using ‘save profile as’ the name of the actual profile is not changed in LMC.
When you hit save afterwards, the originally loaded profile is saved.The next version fixes this unexpected behavior.
Sorry for that bug,
Torvil -
Aside from the basic profile and Windblow’s profile for BMS, does anyone else have a working profile they don’t mind sharing? Thanks!
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Okay, small rant time…
This thing is too damn complicated. I’m reading the manual and around 20 pages in, I’m totally lost and confused. The manual keeps talking about macros, okay cool. But I don’t need that for BMS! I don’t need a macro just to issue voice commands! The interface is confusing as well. There’s the Log Window, Editor Window, the Window for the Window to get to the other Window… then there’s all those little icons at the bottom which would be useful for a programmer but would need reading pages and pages of the manual just to understand what they do.
Going back to the manual… I followed the instructions from p.13-16. Page 13 tells me to do a few things, okay… p.14 does the same, sure… but at the bottom of p.14, talking about “release events” and all other hotkeys having it, etc., and I have no frikkin’ clue what he’s talking about??? I get to p15, “Creat your first LMC command”… GREAT!! Finally, I can do something… “Make sure that you can hear the sound output of your machine.” What is that supposed to mean? My machine is silent, there’s no output sound. Do you mean the system sounds? I create a command for “CTRL+V” and is named “Macro 1”, great! Then the next 80% of the page just flies over my head. I get to the point about the Speech Recognizer Engine, click on the SR icon, click on the Mic icon, and the Log tells me Microphone turned ON, Listening stopped. What? Okay, I literally scream “MACRO ONE!!!” into my mic and nothing happens. Maybe I need to trigger the mic? I press CTRL+2 and the Log tells me “Hotkey pressed: <mic>”… and again, screaming “MACRO ONE!!!” into the mic didn’t do anything. I’ve lowered the confidence level to 60% and still nothing.
Frustrated, I load up VAC, load a profile, press my trigger, speak into the mic, and I get the proper keyboard inputs. So mic is definitely working, and I followed the microphone and training speech recognizer parts of the manual earlier.
So I’m at page 16 and already things are not going well. I continue on to read on and most of the stuff goes over my head. I’m sure LMC is an awesome program and it’ll make me my morning coffee if I learn how to use it properly, but it sure is frustrating! Might as well fire up a program with less features but does what I need it to do and nothing else. Sync macro vs. async macro on p.23? Really? I can’t even make a damn voice command work yet!
To save what little brain cells I have left, I scan the manual and it seems that page 36 onwards has what I need to know, but I’ll save this for tomorrow.
Rant off…
If anyone has any idea how to flatten out the learning curve of this program, I’m all ears.
Torvil, while I appreciate what you’re trying to do here, a serious suggestion is to work on the UI a little bit more. Maybe even have a “simple” and an “advanced” mode. VAC is easy enough to use that a new user could make a couple of commands and be up-and-running in 10 minutes even without reading a manual. Voice Attack is advanced enough that I was able to make it monitor what page I last viewed on the side consoles of Elite Dangerous, and if I said “Request Docking,” it’ll navigate me to the proper side console page and execute the proper controls so it requests docking clearance. I’m sure LMC trumps all of these programs in terms of features and complexity, but it’s hard to use it and appreciate it if I have to navigate through a lot of jargon-filled pages just to get to the basic stuff. Bottom line: the easier it is to use, the better.
:rtfm:</mic>
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Hi -Ice,
I’m always thankful for giving me clues, what page of the manual or what matter needs better explanation.
I will make an effort to explain the ‘mic modes’ alongside with the manual, as that is the root of your initial frustration, as I see it.
Oh, well I think just some lines below you had a hint to that but didn’t care to read. Where’s my smelling salt … aaahhhhhh.As you said, pages flew over your head, and you find it hard to appreciate being forced to navigate through a lot of ‘jargon’ filled pages.
These ‘jargon’ filled pages are meant to be read, by taking the time to read it, as the ‘jargon’ carries a lot of information to slowly but surely lead you to an understanding of the dependencies in LMC. This knowledge is passed to you in a context oriented way, so that you yourself can in a matter of days do this and realize that with LMC without the need for a step-by-step list for every possible usage scenario - which would be impossible to give as there are millions.
You would like to simply get started, well then read the quick-start-guide again, but r e a d it.
Instead of going on reading when something can not be understood / is unclear / will lead to greater frustration soon surely / will lead to a rant on/off mode /… post your question about it here and I’ll go to work on the manual without being mad at another timeless user.When you read about hotkeys and read ‘release events’ you might be able to think of a key-release event or button-release event, perhaps.
As the manual states at the same page, one or two sentences after, there are different mic modes, for example ‘listen while pressed’
and that you could hardly trigger that mode with a hotkey, that waits for the release events to occure…yeah, the sound output of your machine, yeah, yeah … damn - what could that be
The information on the two ‘LMC vocabulary’ pages on p.23 are kept very simple. They are intended to explain the meaning of some words use in this manual, so that you have a clue about the general context when reading up on some functionality in Part III.
VAC is easy to use, VA too, they say. An egg-clock application for a smart phone is easy to use, too - I guess. What has that to do with LMC?
Complaining about BMS being hard to use compared to Tom Clancy’s Hawks would be about the same to be frank with you.Maybe you like it better without any manual? And more simple? With a funny wizard helping you along all the time? I bet: You wouldn’t really like that.
LMC rewards those that take the time to understand the options and features offered.
Just like the setup process (hardware and additional software) for BMS.What would be a simple mode for BMS, for example?
Using the keyboard only, knowing how to give thrust, handle the gear lever, using the speed brake, dog-fight mode, using the gun.
What help would that be to an aspirant in virtual flying - except for a four year old?Hope you find some more time for LMC,
Torvil
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Look at it this way:
A new BMS pilot could just be thrown the -1 and -34 and get him to wrap his head around stuff. Good luck with that.
Or he could be given the Training manual and get him in the air step-by-step. That’s the better approach. You don’t plop a 0-hours student pilot in the cockpit of a 747, do you?You would like to simply get started, well then read the quick-start-guide again, but r e a d it.
I did. And it’s not working.
Details: I’ve followed your guide from p.10 onwards as the previous pages are just to do with License keys. Mic is set up, software is trained, and I even did the additional training. On to p.13-14, I’ve set up the STOP hotkey and also a MICROPHONE hotkey. Your last part on p.14, starting with “The button/key release events” didn’t make any sense at all…p.15-16, I was able to make a Macro 1 containing CTRL+V. I start up the SR engine, click on the Microphone, and like I said, I can literally scream into the mic and nothing happens. I use the hotkey (CTRL+2) to turn on the mic, speak the command, and still nothing… lowered the confidence level to 60, nothing.
What am I doing wrong here? At first I thought my mic wasn’t set up properly, but testing on VAC showed me that the mic works.
On the bottom of p.15, it says I should now be able to record a mouse macro… no. You’ve just shown me how to record a KEYBOARD macro, not a mouse macro. It says I should now know how to create a new command… yes. I know how to make a new keyboard command. It also says I should now know how to trigger the command… no. As above, I don’t know why the mic isn’t working for LMC.
The rest of the quick start guide talks about LMC windows, panel backgrounds, resizing, etc. So there. I have R E A D your quick start guide and I’m still lost, mic is still not working.
It’s difficult to progress deeper into the manual when, 16 pages in, things don’t work already as your manual says they should.
My suggestion would be to make a basic manual. Just get the user to create a few keyboard commands, a few mouse commands, and get it working. Display how LMC works in the basic sense. I know you love your program for the advanced stuff it can do, but it’ll be hard to convince people to try it if they have to jump through 15 hoops just to do something simple. So make a basic manual where new users only have to jump through 1 or 2 hoops, and once they are using your program for some time, then start introducing the advanced concepts.
The information on the two ‘LMC vocabulary’ pages on p.23 are kept very simple.
It may be simple to you, but it makes absolutely no sense to me and I would wager it’s the same for anyone without YOUR background in programming. What the heck is an “one atomic instruction”?? Is it different from one MOLECULAR instruction? Or one CELLULAR instruction? Why should the new user, 23 pages into your manual, care about sync macro and async macro? So async macros can run while other macros are running, sure…. but why is that important here? In what way will a BMS user benefit from this?
Again, if you’re using this as a school project, explaining it to your professor, then I can see the point. However, from your intended market (BMS simmers and other gamers), how is this useful for them? You talk about async macros resulting in some “AI” effect while sync macros are used to perform keyboard/mouse inputs, but that’s it? What “AI”? What keyboard/mouse inputs? How do they mix together?
Then you talkd about tool-clip… in one sentence. Then you tell them to read more in some other part of the manual. So why bring it up here? Just wait until we get to that part of the manual and we’ll talk about it then.
If you are looking for ways to improve your manual, maybe it’s best not to introduce new concepts until you’re actually going to demonstrate how they are used.
VAC is easy to use, VA too, they say. An egg-clock application for a smart phone is easy to use, too - I guess. What has that to do with LMC?
Fitness for purpose. Some people just want a voice control program, not a degree in macro programming with variables. Sure, your program has much more capabilities, but a Ferrari is overkill if all I want to do is go 20 meters down the road; I’ll take my bike instead. I also won’t use my katana or chainsaw to cut this steak on my plate; I’ll use a steak knife.
By making your program overly complicated, I think you’ve lost sight of your actual audience. Again, is this intended for flight simmers? Or is this a school project that you’ve modified and flaunted as useful for BMS simmers?
Complaining about BMS being hard to use compared to Tom Clancy’s Hawks would be about the same to be frank with you.
I’m here because I want to fly BMS. BMS being difficult is part of the appeal; being a true fighter pilot is difficult. Putting your program in the same category as BMS is just you patting yourself in the back; I’m not here to learn computer programming or related complicated terms and algorithms. Putting the time in to learn BMS rewards me by being able to be better at my hobby. Putting time in to learn LMC? How does that give me an advantage over just using VAC?
You need to know your competition: VAC is $18, but all the user has to do is install it, load up Dee-Jay or Darkman’s profile, set up their PTT button, and they’re done and they can go back to flying BMS. Voice Attack is $10, and again, there are profiles available on the forums that are just load-up-and-go. You’ll have to show what your program can do that makes it worth the extra effort of using it over a simpler program.
Maybe you like it better without any manual? And more simple? With a funny wizard helping you along all the time? I bet: You wouldn’t really like that.
I figured out Voice Attack and made it work with Elite Dangerous. I made it so that Voice Attack can keep track of what page I’m on with the left console and right console. I made it so that if I issue a command, such as request docking clearance, Voice Attack will navigate to the correct console, go to the correct page, and select the right command. Elite Dangerous doesn’t have a callback system and there’s no way to request docking outside of that console page command. You can’t even map “request docking” to a keystroke. I was able to adapt Voice Attack anyway. Oh, and there are “voice packs” that can be purchased and downloaded so that “the computer” (Voice Attack) can respond to your commands, even telling you off sometimes. I also have a “voice lock” in which my ship will not start up unless I recite the correct verbal pass code.
A good user interface, an active community, and an easy-to-read manual helps a lot. I wonder if you’ve ever tried your competitor’s products?
What would be a simple mode for BMS, for example?
Using the keyboard only, knowing how to give thrust, handle the gear lever, using the speed brake, dog-fight mode, using the gun.
What help would that be to an aspirant in virtual flying - except for a four year old?Is this how you envision your customers using LMC? Really? Handle the gear lever, use the speed brake? I have my HOTAS and touchscreens for that. It’s hard enough getting LMC to recognize “MACRO ONE!!”, you’re being a bit too optimistic about getting LMC to do dogfight mode and use the gun.
Bottom line: I’m giving LMC a good and fair trial, but at the end of the day, the time I spend on it should be worth the expected return. Your wildcard/placeholder/synonyms approach is why I am trying LMC, but if it’ll take me bloody forever just to get a command to be recognized, the time spent starts to make this exercise quite “expensive.”
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-Ice,
You are giving LMC a good and fair trial?
Well others have understood how to set it up and handle it when there were only tool-tips and a horrific UI, years ago already, FYI.
LMC works, the mic works, a new version is coming up soon and you will definitely be around to deliver some disappointment stories.
You are not up to LMC, I guess. Whatever gave you the idea that you have to be able to do macro programming in LMC for a simple profile?
You keep telling that you have read the manual, while you show complete misunderstanding of the fundamental stuff.Maybe some other LMC user can help you, for a while I’m not willing to spend more time on these pure bashings.
Why did you buy LMC? To have the right to influence its development or manual writing?
Everybody can test LMC before buying it, over some month period, if desired.
LMC costs 5 euros, why should it be easier or better than the 18$ 7 year old VAC?
What is this about a ‘school project’ talk of yours? LMC development started 2013 - long before I even thought about studying computer science.
Also, I just waited for the reply, that I am putting LMC in the same category as BMS. Shows that you are not able to properly read my lines.You may want to learn German, as the next version comes with a much improved manual translated into German, as that is my native language.
While translating I discovered some serious flaws in the English manual myself, as already posted on one of the previous pages of this thread.
My English has always been horrific, so I wonder that anyone dared to even read beyond page 10.To be honest LMC is a piece of old style code shit that I brushed up a little with a stupid toolbar to make a buck in a matter of days.
And you do a lot of advertising in your posts for it, everyone know wants to know, if he/she can understand LMC better than you.Cheers and thanks,
Torvil -
Sorry Torvil, are you here to question me or here to help me figure out your program? I just told you I followed your quickstart guide and had issues there; I’m waiting to see what customer support you have to offer.
ps. Before replying, please check email Torvil. Thanks!!
pps. Currently working nights but will have a little bit of free time soon. If anyone could point me to the best way to crash-course this program, that’ll be much appreciated. -
I think that you english is great!
David
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-Ice,
Post a friendly question, and receive friendly help.
Criticism is very welcome, too. If it is based on some knowledge, that is.Why does your mic not work? What is your microphone setting on the Settings/Microphone page?
What are your Settings of the Sliders on the Settings/‘Speech Recognizer’ page?I’m not mad at you, btw.
Cheers,
Torvil -
To anyone interested,
register at livrot.com, post your user name of your registered account in this thread or PM it to me, and I’ll upgrade your account for free.
All I ask is, that if you create a realistic flight profile, that you upload it on livrot.com (support page) for others.
To help improve the manual you could also make a short list of pages and problems concerning the understanding of the manual, thanks in advance.
Everyone would benefit from it.This offer is valid at least until January 15th 2017.
Enjoy,
Torvil -
Post a friendly question, and receive friendly help.
You do know I was ranting, right? Very first line on my first post.
Criticism is very welcome, too. If it is based on some knowledge, that is.
Are you saying my criticism isn’t welcome then? What more “knowledge” do you need to acknowledge that the UI and manual needs more work to be more newbie-friendly?
Why does your mic not work? What is your microphone setting on the Settings/Microphone page?
Sorry, you are confused. My mic DOES work. VAC and Windows confirms this. Why does it not work with LMC, even after following your quickstart guide instructions?
What are your Settings of the Sliders on the Settings/‘Speech Recognizer’ page?
If you are referring to the Window\Settings Window > Speech Recognizer tab, I’ve not touched this at all so whatever is default. I’ve not been told to fiddle with this in the instructions so haven’t messed with this page at all.
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You again Ice?
Same stuff as the Yame story but with LMC now?
You’re starting to piss off mods with your name appearing a little too often in these support discussions that turn a bit too hotYou two fo fix that problem on LMC now.
By the way, Is LMC payware? It’s BMS policy not to support payware application gents. -
I have downloaded LMC my user name for Livrot.com is Toaster 1. Is this what you require to upgrade my account?
David
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yup.
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@Red:
You again Ice?
Same stuff as the Yame story but with LMC now?
You’re starting to piss off mods with your name appearing a little too often in these support discussions that turn a bit too hotSorry, but the issue with YAME is different from the issue with LMC.
@Red:
You two fo fix that problem on LMC now.
Trust me, the email exchanges are getting rather…. interesting.
@Red:
By the way, Is LMC payware? It’s BMS policy not to support payware application gents.
Really? AFAIK, TacView is payware too… unless I’m understanding that term wrong.
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I have to excuse to -Ice,
having read that passage of the manual again, it really is a major mistake of the quick-start-guide. Useless, misleading and stupid - to be honest.
I’m not always at my best when working on the manual or LMC, as I do try very hard to make it better and this often produces the contrary as the days grow loooong.
The passage explaining the mic hotkey button not recording the release events is of absolutely no use to the beginner.
I also have to excuse for my reaction to his small ‘advisory’ rant.Today I finished translating the german manual, made the artificial speech response work with 26 additional voices (languages) and achieved that it no longer ‘freezes’ LMC to have text spoken by artificial voice.
Soon the next version rolls out, and I hope that people can start to appreciate the effort that I have put into it.
The new English and German manuals should do a much better job explaining LMC.Regards to -Ice and LMC users and you,
Torvil -
I really appreciate you acknowledging this issue, Torvil. Do know that I am here to support your program, but it’s difficult to do so if the manual says one thing, real life gives a different result, and the user is left scratching his head and getting frustrated. Imagine using the F4.0 or F4AF manual to learn BMS… you’ll get nothing but frustration and most likely decide that BMS is not worth your time. Now imagine learning BMS with the new step-by-step manual they have in 4.33.2! Hours and hours of learning and joyous flying follows. I guess we simply need to make your manual “idiot proof” and I’d be happy to volunteer as the “idiot”! Anything to flatten the learning curve will be a plus! Teach the user how to walk before running.
I would also like to follow your lead and step up and apologize for the rant… I’m on night shifts plus the pressure of the holidays so I was really frustrated especially as I got LMC to work last year. However, I would like to say that I still stand behind the points I’ve made on the rant; perhaps I could’ve worded them better like Tyrant did but then again, I did say it was a “rant” :rolleyes:
I look forward to getting the new version of LMC and especially the new manual. I hope that it does indeed help new users use and appreciate LMC.
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I did investigate the issue you have with the mic, -Ice.
To my complete surprise. I enabled the SR, then the mic and directly afterwards the Log told me ‘listening stopped’.
I have a Win 7 Ultimate install in English featuring the US and UK speech recognizer.
Switching to the US recognizer on the settings-window / ‘speech recognizer’ page fixed this for me.
I will investigate this further tomorrow.Regards,
Torvil -
Thank you for investigating!
Indeed, pressing the mic icon starts the mic and then “listening stopped” immediately thereafter. Using the microphone hotkey, I don’t see the “listening stopped” but still, speaking into the mic produces no results. I’m on Win10 Anniversary Edition with up-to-date patches. I’ll try your fix tomorrow.
Thanks!