Curiosity Poll - How much did you spent for HOTAS (stick and thruttle)
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That’s always for the best
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big boys = big toys
… same with sim-racing (which is goood fun nowadays looking at the amazing physics fidelity - iRacing, PCars2 etc)
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I could build an F1 sim for peanuts compared to what I’ve spent on my Viperpit…
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Studying causes of poll bias and so forth is interesting and all, but I’m not too surprised given two things:
-If you’ve spent a crapton of money on hardware, you’re going to naturally want to let people know about it.
-Falcon BMS isn’t exactly a casual video game here - it’s developed into a serious sim for devoted simmers, the kind of people who would blow hundreds, if not thousands on a cockpit setup in the first place.@A.S:
They are outdated and the toe-brake sensors “blow”, but the foot spacing and other sensors rock.
The centering mechanism (bolt and rails) wear over time (metal over plastic), this is why i put steel-bars on the “centering legs” (iron on iron now). Also, the stopping (maximum angle) was lame… that is why i added own “blockers”.I’d like some pics of your mods, as while I haven’t noticed too much in terms of centering wear, I definitely have noticed the electrical deadzones on each end that still leave a significant amount of pedal travel. Seems like a weird oversight.
My set’s the less fancy Vario without toebrakes, but hey, what’s to stop me from modding in my own set of toe brakes with whatever sensors I want to use? It’s even wired up such that the Cougar controller board thinks it has toebrakes when it doesn’t, so if I just tap into the right pins on the DB-15 cable…
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[…] while users with cheaper systems may not give give their vote, because they give a s*** whether their HOTAS is good or not.
I think you’re selling those on cheaper gear a little short there. I’m sure they very much care about the quality of their HOTAS but not everybody is able to spend that much on a Cougar or Warthog, let alone additional mods. That doesn’t mean that those with more budget orientated HOTAS care less or are any less committed to their flightsims. However, you are right that those folks may shy away from replying all together.
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hmmm as i said around 150-250 maybe more if i had but 2 years ago i was lucky and i found a cougar used (not too much) for a 150 here in Greece not modded unfortunatelly, the guy was selling it cause he didnt fly anymore. I reckon it must be a bit old as some things started to fall apart a bit as the lever that sets the friction for the throtle but i manage to fix it. And to tell the truth if ill go for a new one ill go for an Saitek or something else. Not WH i dont like it too much. I wish thrustmaster would bring the cougar back one day!
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wish thrustmaster would bring the cougar back one day!
+1. !!
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I think you’re selling those on cheaper gear a little short there. I’m sure they very much care about the quality of their HOTAS but not everybody is able to spend that much on a Cougar or Warthog, let alone additional mods. That doesn’t mean that those with more budget orientated HOTAS care less or are any less committed to their flightsims. However, you are right that those folks may shy away from replying all together.
@Tazz: You read me wrong here (or I expressed myself not clear, which is more probable, since English is not my mother tongue). I was trying to say that owners of cheaper systems, less than 250 dollars will not brag about their gear as owners of more expensive systems. The important thing for them is that the system is working and allowing them to perform well in the sim. The HOTAS itself is not the “focus” of their hobby.
I was until 2012/2013 the owner of X52 and X52pro before moving to a more expensive HOTAS. I can tell you [contrary to what ICE wrote in his reply above ([I]“Not caring whether their HOTAS is good or not is like saying not caring whether they hit the target or not.”) ], my skills and combat performance did NOT change because I got a more expensive HOTAS. So, a X52, a cheap system below 180 dollars, will not prevent you of hitting any targets! The only reason, in my opinion, to buy a more expensive system, is it will be more close to the “real thing”.
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- The pool has now 85 votes, and the population (active users) in the BMS forum is 4865 right now. 85 votes give a margin of error of about 10% for this population, and assuming a confidence error of 95%. Right now, the pool shows that 48% of the voters have systems pricing above 350 dollars. Assuming again an average price of 500 dollars, that gives a market value for the expensive systems of about US$1.2 millions. Still not impressive, in my opinion.
- Point given, this value is only for BMS users. Lets take a look on DCS. The DCS forums have about 62.072 users. No information available on how many are active, but lets assume it is the same as in BMS (17%). So, from DCS, we have more 5094 users with expensive systems, which totals to a market value of about US$2.5 milllions. Ok, that is more interesting. Specially, if added to the BMS’s 1.2 millions…3.7millions.
-Of course, several users in BMS and DCS are on both forums, and the market value will probably be smaller than 3.7 millions. Other sims like MFS, X-Plane, etc, according to net search this week, have a minor number of owners of expensive HOTAS. My sampling focused on forums and sub forums on military ops. Asked some friends, and looked at some signatures. Very few. Besides, those flying MFS/X-Plane/etc, with expensive HOTAS also fly DCS (and perhaps BMS), and I would be counting two times in my analysis.
-My estimation gives that market value of HOTAS systems with prices averaging 500 dollars must be around 3-4 millions of dollars. The question now, is that much?
-An User does not buy usually new (expensive) HOTAS every year. On the contrary, they are bought and used several years. So, these $3-4 millions are probably spread several years, which says a lot about the interest of companies on this market.
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I was until 2012/2013 the owner of X52 and X52pro before moving to a more expensive HOTAS. I can tell you [contrary to what ICE wrote in his reply above ([I]“Not caring whether their HOTAS is good or not is like saying not caring whether they hit the target or not.”) ], my skills and combat performance did NOT change because I got a more expensive HOTAS. So, a X52, a cheap system below 180 dollars, will not prevent you of hitting any targets! The only reason, in my opinion, to buy a more expensive system, is it will be more close to the “real thing”.
I would say that being an owner of an X52 or X52 Pro due to budget concerns, being fully aware of the better offerings, you are one of those that DO care about a good HOTAS but has to make concessions due to budget concerns.
I may have worded that point quite wrong… I did not mean it literally. I was quite able to hit my targets using my old Logitech Extreme 3D Pro when I was flying AF, so I know that is possible I was responding to this line:
@tbuc:while users with cheaper systems may not give give their vote, because they give a s*** whether their HOTAS is good or not.
and I’m assuming you meant _"because they don’t give a s* whether their HOTAS is good or not"_**.
The HOTAS is the interface between pilot and aircraft. Cheaping out on that is like buying a $2,000 PC with a 34" 4K monitor then using a VGA cable to connect the PC to the monitor…
I think this bit reflects better what I was trying to say… Sure, the VGA cable can still get the job done, just as a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro can still be a perfectly good controller. However, you went for the 4K screen for the detail, even though a HD screen is still a perfectly good display setup. You went for the $2,000 PC for the power, even though you could’ve gone with a $1,200 build. There are some things that are simply better with better hardware, or easily achievable with the correct hardware. I never could AAR with my Logi, but having my WH setup gave me the confidence to keep at it. With the correct hardware and the correct position, if I still couldn’t AAR, then it was squarely my fault. With wrong hardware or wrong position, there is a bigger possibility of not getting AAR done due to hardware/position limitations. That’s not saying it can’t be done, I’m sure somewhere out there somebody takes on fuel in an F-18 while inverted connecting to the tip of the boom while using a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro… What I’m saying is that it’ll be much more difficult for us with normal human abilities.
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To be honest, im not surprised that TM takes 10-12 years between significant new product releases. It costs so much to design, test, produce, market, ship, sell and support products that the actual volumes they sell annually makes it tough to make a profit.
A buddy and i created a better Warthog cursor hat using his 3D printer and manufacturering skills and my design and test. We are both engineers, and still it took probably 50+ hours and about 10 revisions. One stinking throttle hat.
I have a much greater respect for what controller vendors do and the costs. Paying top dollar for a top controller isnt scalping imho. You get what you pay for.
Our cursor hat mod
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I think the market is really too small to expect TM to bring back the Cougar. A new Cougar would be based on the Warthog electronics and all, but still it would require quite an investment on their part. Also because they will have to be able to sell it as a combination product with the Warthog stick, which then really needs to be rebranded to something else - as well as a standalone version to be sold to existing Warthog owners as well. A lot of effort and investment for which seems to be a very small market and then you’re aiming for the top-tier price range in that market as well. I just don’t see the business sense in that to be honest. And looking at their recent product line developments, neither does TM from the looks of it?
I’m hopeful that Logitech will take Saitek, run out the MadCatz -fools and shake things up to produce a competitive, quality HOTAS, even when it is aimed a lower price bracket in the market. If Logitech can fix the quality and design issues of the X-56 and produce a F-16 replica HOTAS product using high quality plastics, it could be a real contender for the “not-Warthog” market space. Given that the Warthog and Cougar are based on real-world designs, I doubt if TM could claim copyright on the shape and form of the F-16 stick and throttle quadrant?
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AV8R, how exactly is that a mod??
As for TM bringing back the Cougar, why not? I mean they’re bringing out an F-18 stick, right? Are they going to bring out an F-18 throttle too? Nope, seems like they’re happy to keep the WH throttle. They’re also selling the stick and throttle separately, for both the WH and the T.16000M. So what’s stopping them from developing an F-16 throttle and sell that separately? The market may be small, but we’re talking about guys who spend silly amounts of money on the hobby anyway so just because some guy cough!!Steviecough!!** already has a TM WH, doesn’t mean he won’t buy a Cougar standalone throttle.
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The mod was to replace the throttle’s cursor nipple hat, with one similar to the real one.
Before the mod
After
The new cursor hat
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I’d like some pics of your mods, as while I haven’t noticed too much in terms of centering wear, I definitely have noticed the electrical deadzones on each end that still leave a significant amount of pedal travel. Seems like a weird oversight.
ORIGINAL CONDITION
MODDED
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forget to add… stick cost me 220eur (got it very early before main release) . and the mod… uhm …around 120eur -150eur.
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Hey, that reminds me of one of the Evenstrain-inspired Cougar mods! But I thought you were talking about Simped pedal mods, not X-55 ones!
I’ve actually seen similar mods for the Warthog stick to mitigate or eliminate the infamous “stiction”, too. The stick base plate is certainly wide enough for it.
Also, speaking of Warthog throttle slew control mods: the “nipple” is the least of one’s worries with that thing. It just doesn’t travel enough in any given direction, it’s not a force transducer like a real mil-spec slew control (which won’t actually fit in a TM Warthog right grip due to the lever lock and screw wells inside getting in the way of things), and you can’t simply replace it with a more conventional analog stick because it uses some kinda I2S or I2C interface instead of simply being an analog voltage return like a potentiometer wired in voltage divider mode or a Hall effect sensor. But, hey, I bet it’s already a heck of a lot more ergonomic than before!
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simped mod is very simple…but cant bother taking pics … maybe if i have .i make a description (instruction) for you. ok?
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The mod was to replace the throttle’s cursor nipple hat, with one similar to the real one.
Ah, so the entire thing moves now like a hat switch instead of just a “nipple”?
A.S, what is that mod on your joystick? Is it just to increase resisitance to the stick movement?
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Ah, so the entire thing moves now like a hat switch instead of just a “nipple”?
A.S, what is that mod on your joystick? Is it just to increase resisitance to the stick movement?
Exactly. It had to just right in weight, size, design and strength
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Cool!