Israel 1980s - UOAF edition
-
We also need to add Kfir and a squadron of F-15A to the '88 camp
Some info Uri gave me on squadrons:
As for IAF squadrons… it’s a mess in the 80s be careful
for example in 1980 the 110th and the 117th had been the first two F-16A squadrons in the IAF.
in 1986 when the first block 30s had entered service, 110 & 117 had transferred all their aircraft to 140th and 253rd squarons (which were A-4 and Kfir squadrons).
then the first three squadrons getting the block 30 were the 110, 117 and 109 (which was also a A-4 squadron at the time).109 and 140 moved their aircrafts to the 115th and 116th squadrons.
however, all three squadrons had operated both the C and D variants.
in 1991 the first block 40s were recived. going to the 101 and 105 (also mixed squadrons).
101 was operating kfir and the 105 was F-4 squadron till 1987.only in the 2000s the seperation of C and D to different squadrons has started in the IAF.
yeah, 80s was a mess
-
Note that this web site states that the forming of 133 Squadron (The Second Eagle Squadron), actually did not occur before the start of the 1982 campaign because of the invasion of Lebanon and all F-15s were flown by a single, large squadron instead:
I think you’ve misinterpreted the F-15 Link. (or typo)
All the F-15’s operated under the 133rd Double Tail squadron in 1982
After the war, the C’s and D’s separated into the 106th Spearhead squadron. Both 133rd and 106th based at Tel Nof
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxVB1kwqSn3BMnhRcFVrdC04WDgAlso i’m noticing some of the patches you’ve posted were for squadrons that we have wrong, like the 113th. (they are cobras, and should be the 160th or 161st, haven’t set correctly yet) So again, need to get the squadrons fixed 1st, patches come second.
-
IAF was using the Flying Tigers Patch on the A-4M? Interesting
-
I think you’ve misinterpreted the F-15 Link. (or typo)
All the F-15’s operated under the 133rd Double Tail squadron in 1982
After the war, the C’s and D’s separated into the 106th Spearhead squadron. Both 133rd and 106th based at Tel Nof
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxVB1kwqSn3BMnhRcFVrdC04WDgSorry I meant the other wary around. The Double Tail (133) squadron was the only Baz squadron to see action during the Lebanon war, which lasted from 04 June 1982 until the cease fire on 11 June 1982.
The Spearhead squadron (106) was established on 16 June 1982 (page 61. “Israeli F-15 Eagle Units in Combat”, Combat Aircraft 067, Osprey), … “some ten days later than was originally planned.” )
On page 62 it continues to detail that 106 Squadron achieved IOC immediately because all its personnel had, in fact, been conducting combat operations as part of the 133 Squadron.Is it possible to double the inventory of a single squadron in BMS so that it can generate the same amount of missions as two squadrons while only representing a single squadron?
If not, then giving one squadron F-15Cs and the other F-15As would probably be the most accurate solution. As it doesn’t seem to be possible to have squadrons operate mixtures of F-15C/Ds or F-15A/Bs, it would make sense to pick the most numerous version. Under Peace Fox III, the IDF received 18 F-15Cs and 8 F-15Ds, so going with the F-15C seems to make the most sense?
-
IAF was using the Flying Tigers Patch on the A-4M? Interesting
lol is one of his patches wrong?
Is it possible to double the inventory of a single squadron in BMS so that it can generate the same amount of missions as two squadrons while only representing a single squadron?
doubtful
If not, then giving one squadron F-15Cs and the other F-15As would probably be the most accurate solution. As it doesn’t seem to be possible to have squadrons operate mixtures of F-15C/Ds or F-15A/Bs, it would make sense to pick the most numerous version. Under Peace Fox III, the IDF received 18 F-15Cs and 8 F-15Ds, so going with the F-15C seems to make the most sense?
The way we’re doing it in the 82 camp for example, (if you check out the squadron spreadsheet I’ve linked), is to make three 133rd squadrons, all based at Tel Nof. One for A, one for C, one for D. In Mission commander we can tailor each squadron to have the correct amount of aircraft.
-
lol is one of his patches wrong?
doubtful
This page also lists the Flying Tigers patch: http://www.cieldegloire.com/sq_iaf_102.php
So this the A-4 Skyhawk Association: http://a4skyhawk.info/article-unit/iaf-flying-tiger-squadronThe same patch is also found on page 71 of “Israeli A-4 Skyhawk Units in Combat” so that pretty much confirms it if you ask me.
The way we’re doing it in the 82 camp for example, (if you check out the squadron spreadsheet I’ve linked), is to make three 133rd squadrons, all based at Tel Nof. One for A, one for C, one for D. In Mission commander we can tailor each squadron to have the correct amount of aircraft.
Do you also want to add a F-15B squadron? I know it gets messy but F-15Bs scored kills on 10 June and 11 June 1982 (2x MiG-25).
In fact all four F-15 A, B, C and D models scored kills against Syrian Air Force aircraft during combat over Lebanon. Note that all aircraft are listed as 133 Squadron. -
This page also lists the Flying Tigers patch: http://www.cieldegloire.com/sq_iaf_102.php
So this the A-4 Skyhawk Association: http://a4skyhawk.info/article-unit/iaf-flying-tiger-squadronThe same patch is also found on page 71 of “Israeli A-4 Skyhawk Units in Combat” so that pretty much confirms it if you ask me.
Do you also want to add a F-15B squadron? I know it gets messy but F-15Bs scored kills on 10 June and 11 June 1982 (2x MiG-25).
In fact all four F-15 A, B, C and D models scored kills against Syrian Air Force aircraft during combat over Lebanon. Note that all aircraft are listed as 133 Squadron.As of now the number we have (and in your source as well) shows only 2 F-15B models…. so that is a bit small for its own squadron so we added that number to the F-15D squadron.
Now patches anyone?
- 69 - 102, - 103, - 106, - 113, - 114, - 116, - 118, - 120, - 123 , - 124, - 131, - 133, - 143, - 144, - 147, - 160, - 161, & - 190, - 192 - 254,
For patches well we pretty much had all of them already:
(note the 114th,116th,160th,161st, and the 192nd patches are flipped)
- 69 - 102, - 103, - 106, - 113, - 114, - 116, - 118, - 120, - 123 , - 124, - 131, - 133, - 143, - 144, - 147, - 160, - 161, & - 190, - 192 - 254,
-
Does 134 Squadron even HAS a patch?
-
Do you also want to add a F-15B squadron? I know it gets messy but F-15Bs scored kills on 10 June and 11 June 1982 (2x MiG-25).
In fact all four F-15 A, B, C and D models scored kills against Syrian Air Force aircraft during combat over Lebanon. Note that all aircraft are listed as 133 Squadron.a squadron of just 2 won’t even work I imagine, as 2 are automatically kept in reserve for scrambling
Also my F-15 book shows Simon and Hodorov in Baz 704 killing 1xmig-21 that day. No MiG-25’s. You never know which source to believe sometimes! haha -
I think the MiG-25P kills were in 1981, not 1982. So that one website got the kills right, the aircraft type right but not the dates.
-
Ah, I see. The book goes into some good detail (page 32 and 37) about the two Foxbat-E kills in '81 too. One was accomplished by the same pilot Shaul Simon, and both in single seaters. Think the guy who made that website got a bit confused haha.
-
Our in-game OOB now matches very closely to the real thing.
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/aa-mideast/israel/af/orbat4-10.htm
Squadrons, numbers of aircraft, and the correct bases. Pretty cool.
-
Aeroflight is often a bit out of date, which isn’t too bad for this theater but my main go-to source for current ORBAT info is Scramble’s Orbat section:
-
Nice. Thing is we found the Aeroflight page after everything was complete, all gathered from other sources, and what we had lined right up with their ORBAT.
Now if we could just get the AI to play out the war realistically…
For instance, in reality Israel never flew into Syrian airspace, or attacked airbases/military installations in Syria. But in BMS it’s a free-for all. I guess the player can set the PAKs and conduct the war how he chooses.
We’ll at least get the ground forces pushing toward Beirut. -
Well that’s the drawback of a dynamic campaign engine. You can put all the chess pieces in the right spots but you don’t really know or control how the game will unfold.
In order to fully re-enact the 1982 conflict, a scripted approach (e.g. DCS) would work better or otherwise set-piece TEs. But as a campaign, you’ll come to a point where you can put all the pieces in the right place and then let go and see what happens.
-
Regarding fictional campaigns, have you considered a scenario that would see Iran join into the campaign against Israel, deploying their assets into Lebanon and Syria?
That would bring a lot of other interesting things into play … Not least of them Tomcats, F-5s, F-4s, Mirage F1s, etc.
-
Yeah that’s a real interesting idea actually.
For the third campaign, This is what I was thinking:
In our alternate reality, the peace talks after the Yom Kippur war didn’t work out and Israel never withdrew from the Sinai. The Soviet Union continues to support Egypt.
Very soon after Israel obtains F-16’s in 1980, Egypt and Syria simultaneously surprise-attack Israel again. So you’ve got two fronts: Egypt at the Suez canal and Syria pushing through the Golan heights. Basically the October War II with more modern weapons. Not sure about the feasibility of this in BMS, but we’ll see. We need to learn alot about manipulating the trigger files first. -
I like the idea of throwing Iran into the mix. Just a whole coalition of Muslim countries trying to swallow Israel and you’ve got to fend them all off.
-
If that becomes too complicated, sticking to a battle against a Soviet backed Egypt (no Egyptian F-16’s/western weapons) with the FLOT at the Suez canal.
-
Guys who have tried the theater, do you have reports on performance/FPS?
We tend to use lots of units.
This would definitely have to be scaled back in a two-front war.