Tactics, tips, knowledge sharing.
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Thank you for sharing man
sounds very interesting, really, it shows that you dont autamotically have the upper hand if you AIM-120s, with technique and skills you can be good with sparrow like missiles.
This makes me think of an article i read of a french carrier on cruise. They had rafales on board and super entendard.
They were cruising not far from pakistan, and did some dogfighting training with the Mirages from pakistan.
One of teh french pilot said that even if the Mirage 3 is outdated, they have learned to be masters in defeating BVR and sneak in for dogfight, and they have very very good skill in dogfight.
Shows that it really comes tot the pilot and the training they get.
I see taht in your tactics, you rather defeat the missile by outturning it, than outrun it. Because most of the time, from what i read from others, when they are shot at, they turn back, full AB and dive away, to outrun the incoming missile.
It cost a lot of fuel.
Do you think that in the BVR arena … on missile for 1 target is … utopic ? …you fire at least 2 missiles at another BVR capable target before hitting him.
But to my understanding, in a Barcap for example, it is most important to keep the bad guys away, so if shooting at them without hitting them,makes them run away from your assigned BARCAP station, it is a succes.
Thank you again for sharing, this can be a very interesting thread, i just hope guys will keep it constructive and polite.
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In my point of view when it come to a 4 versus 4 BVR you always want to have a wingman with you. Two extra set of eyes only increases the situation awareness (You can use check six if you’re flying with an AI). If you’re flying with AI’s you want to lock up a target and setup a command tactic for the element flight and also come up with one of your own with your wingman based on the situation at hand. One of the best way to quickly lock up a target is to use RWS mode with reduced azimuth and bar-scan. As the target get’s closer you want to reduce the radar range so that you can scan the target more effectively as the target get’s closer. Also, if you happen to locate a jammer contact on your radar. You’re know if your scanning at the right attitude if the radar strobe is moving up and down. Once you have burned through the bogey jammer you want to visually look outside to cockpit and see where you are relative to the bogey. Scan the terrain and look for possible valley or areas to go defenses if launched upon; therefore, creating a picture of where the target will be or end up so that you won’t need AWACS giving you the outmost best chance of locking up the bogey up again. Now, when it come to firing off your missile at the bogey it all depends on the altitude that you are and your locked bogey. If your high your missile has more momentum; therefore, you can fire at a longer range in the sense that you have more room to escape if fired upon. If your average altitude you’re need to fire before the bogey goes nose cold or fire’s after you knowingly knowing that you can defeat the missile. If your low altitude you need to come in fast and mean as hell and get one off within 10nm.
When you’re performing these one versus one engagement than you can focus more on your wingman either commanding to take a single side offense or checking your six. When going defensive you should have already known the best area for cover which would give you time to check your elements status and your wingman.
This is only one view of a scenario of many tactics that can be executed depending on the situation and type of target.
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I see taht in your tactics, you rather defeat the missile by outturning it, than outrun it. Because most of the time, from what i read from others, when they are shot at, they turn back, full AB and dive away, to outrun the incoming missile.
Running away from the missile is the easiest way to defeat it but then you wont be able to kill the enemy…
It cost a lot of fuel.
I guess its better to use the fuel in you afterburner than using it to burn up your aircraft
Do you think that in the BVR arena … on missile for 1 target is … utopic ? …you fire at least 2 missiles at another BVR capable target before hitting him.
Atleast if youre engaging a more capable fighter than your own, as in the case above. If the F-15 in the above scenario would fire another missile at me before the first one passes me I wouldnt have a chance. I would have to turn and run (breaking the lock - my missiles will stop guiding) and since he’s faster than me he would catch up and fire more at my six.
When in the above scenario the DCS AI would first just fly straight at you guiding his missile, happily ignoring that you have fired at him. I think most human players would do the same. He wont start trying to jink the missiles until they are really close.
Also, when you’re double-firing, make sure you dont fire the second missile too soon because otherwise he might defeat both missiles in one maneuver. If he is not carefull he will lose a lot of energy (speed) when out-maneuvering the first missile so the second one will hit him much more easily.
The basic theory behind all this is missile energy bleeding. The AIM-120 will always try to intercept your course, that is, try to fly where it thinks you will be and it will hit you. If you are doing a large barrel roll the missile will do an even larger barrel roll trying to intercept you. The missile’s rocket motor only burns a little while, a few seconds, and after that it just tries to glide the rest of the way. When gliding it will lose speed quickly and when it is going slow it will not be able to maneuver. Then it will be very easy to out-turn.
Another similar tactic is firing and then diving towards the ground, maintaining you lock on the enemy. Then you just fly straight at him and keep looking up to spot the incoming missile. Once it almost hits you you pull the stick and it will fly under your aircraft. I myself thinks this tactic is much harder to pull off. I believe there’s a ACMI-video in Falcon BMS showing some guy doing this.
Thank you again for sharing, this can be a very interesting thread, i just hope guys will keep it constructive and polite.
+1
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So…
1. Maintain situational awareness (with the help of wingman)
2. Narrow radar search as much as possible
3. Find terrain for escapes
4. Try to have altitude advantage on the bogeySeems all very good tips I was thinking about one thing. It seems that its almost always best to be at as high altitude as possible (against bandits and defeating incoming SAM missiles). Wouldnt it be best to just always fly the F-16 at its maximum altitude? The high-altitude SAMs tend to get destroyed early on in the campaign. What do you think?
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I find it also very usefull what Paveway said. It is really important.
Yes, altitude is some of the key factor, it is called potential energy for this reason i guess. It is potential energy for yourself, and for the missiles you shoot downward at an ennemy.
I was thinking the same thing, that actually it is best to remain at high altitude, but i dont really know if the maximum altitude is such a good idea.
My point is, the higher an airplane flyes, the slower the indicated airspeed is going to be, but on the other hand your ground speed is going to increase.
At maximum altitude,in a combat configuration your aircraft is going to be really slow in regard of indicated airspeed, and your angle of attack is going to increase too … actually you will save some fule but … like you can see when you read the Quick referenc charts, at 40 000 feet you burn more fuel than at 35 000 feet. It depends of your configuration, but at 40 000 feet the air is so thin that actually you have to fly fast for ahaving enough air to create lift … faster than at 35 000 , so you burn more fuel.
High altitude is good for fuel economy, cruise etc … but for fencing in i think 20 000 feet or 22 000 feet is the best altitude. It still keeps you out of range of most middle altitude SAMs ( it is around 15 000 feet).
On the other hand, flying at 30 000 feet or 35 000 feet depending on the air temperature, therefore its density you can with full AB obtain impressive speeds, because you got less air resistance … which is therefore suitable for firing A-A missiles at maximum range.
But one big factor comes in … Air dominance, i immagine the sooner the Air superiority is etablished, the more flexible you can afford to be towards altitudes.
Ingressing at 22 000 or even 25 000 and egressing at 30 000 or even 35 000 feet, at egressing you should be lighter than at ingressing.
But yes that way you keep a lot of potential energy, and room to dive and do evasive manouvers when needed.
Because the lower you fly, the nastier it gets for you … hihger consumption … your airspeed indicated may look impressive, but your fuel flow too … do to higher air density, your engine works more fuel to get you at the airspeed. You are also in reach of most of the Sams of meduim altitude.
It is said that an F-16 at 15 000 feet is almsot impossible to spot, its a little airplane compared to others.
But i rejoin you, on the fact that the more you advance in a campaign, if SEAD missions and air superiority missions worked out well … you are very safe at high altitude.
SAMS are a nasty threat …but AAA … oh my … they do shoot like they were in lead pursuit, shoot in front of your nose … i immagine that n real life if an AAA spots you in the sky, they are going to shoot in way you have no exit window … altitude is what can save you then.
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Paveway
I totally agree with you, it is really what one should do to keep its Situational awarness.
But one thing is for sure … the menace on the ground will limit you in your option for defensive manouvers against an air threat.
I wonder what kind of rules of engagement here are when it is at the first days of war, a lot os SAMS, and detection radars etc …looking for you …
This actually where you see, the advantage of having a silent hunter like the F-22 in your arsenal, i was also considering the fact that like Ragnarda said, altitude is a good firend.
When i look at how powerfull an F-22, Urofighter, Rafale in terms of engine thrust is, … i start to understand why htey can be a key in air combat.
Not only for dogfight, but also for gaining altitude quickly.
From both of you with your exprience in BMS, do you know if the AI i hte F-22 or Eurofighter takes adavantage of that capaicity ?
thans guy for sahring
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All of you guys have great points.So BIG UPS on your post.In BVR situations multi-ship encounters.I like to use electronic warfare tactics to confuse,and disorient the opponent especially if they are human players.But it works on the AI also(at least in Falcon AF it did).
A favorite 2 v 2 tactic was to Stay in TWS mode while my wingman used RWS to get a lock on the bandits.He would have ECM on emitting(drawing attention) while I would stay silent.Once he locked um up we would work a simple handoff tell I got a soft lock.Then I would launch(max range) reduce speed and crank(say to the right ).While he would notch or split S away and run at max speed drawing attention to him and away from the incoming missiles that I had fired.Follow on tactics would then be easy.As the bandits would always have a hard time sorting and figuring who was firing on them and from where. While he would be able to stay out of range and re-engage safely with advantage.While I would reposition(say on the flanks) or disengage.
Now imagine the confusion on the other side when you take turns blinking your ECM ON/OFF while your teammate does the same.Add in Pinch,Post hole manouvers,etc, and you get my point!
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http://www.scribd.com/doc/49645378/2001-OG-AIM120-Hughes-Raytheon-AIM-120-AMRAAM-Operations-Guide
While it could be somewhat dated, the document is an excellent resource to understand the AIM-120 and how to employ it.There was a very good discussion at Frugals regarding F-pole, E-pole (and other pole fantasies) and BVR tactics; possible someone here will know where else can that goldmine be found.
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You could already check the Amraam article on this website, that’s a good starting point.
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vids guys vids… the ILS vid is a milestone.
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I dont know if this is already covered somewhere, but is it possible to fire the Amraam at a datalinked target (from your wingman) with your own radar off? The missile is guided using a datalink between you and the missile and not your radar so i guess in theory it would work, right? I guess it depends on things like the update rate of the datalink between you and your wingman and other factors… Anyone tested it in FBMS?
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Also, does anyone know if they get a RWR warning when you fire the AIM-120 in TWS-mode? To me it seems when I fire on soft-locked targets in TWS they dont go defensive, as if they dont know that the have missiles inconoming…
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On launching the AMRAAM on a buddy lock from datalink.If you think about how the missile works…ask yourself who is guiding the missile until it goes Pitbull? Launching platform right!?
On detection of a missile launched in TWS Mode.You should not and will not get a launch detection.But will only detect the missile when it goes PITBULL!Which is one of the great things about TWS.But the draw back of course is losing lock while the missile is in flight prior to A or F POLE.
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Also, does anyone know if they get a RWR warning when you fire the AIM-120 in TWS-mode? To me it seems when I fire on soft-locked targets in TWS they dont go defensive, as if they dont know that the have missiles inconoming…
As Lift-V already pointed out, no detection of the 120 until pitbull. Also, when in TWS-mode only “soft-lock” the target. By “soft-locking” in TWS the enemy will not get a lock tone from your F-16 on their RWR. So, enter TWS, “soft-lock”, Fire 120 and until pitbull they wont even know you’ve fired at them (unless of course they see the smoke trail from the missle).
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@Lift~Vector:
On launching the AMRAAM on a buddy lock from datalink.If you think about how the missile works…ask yourself who is guiding the missile until it goes Pitbull? Launching platform right!?
I don’t understand what you mean. If i have a datalinked target my system knows where the target is, how is that different from target information provided from my own radar? If the AMRAAM would be guided through radar as the Sparrow that would be a different story (but then maybe one could set the Sparrow to follow the radar reflections by your buddys radar). I believe the Su-25T’s employ a similar tactic with their Shkval’s and Vihkr’s…
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So…
1. Maintain situational awareness (with the help of wingman)
2. Narrow radar search as much as possible
3. Find terrain for escapes
4. Try to have altitude advantage on the bogeySeems all very good tips I was thinking about one thing. It seems that its almost always best to be at as high altitude as possible (against bandits and defeating incoming SAM missiles). Wouldnt it be best to just always fly the F-16 at its maximum altitude? The high-altitude SAMs tend to get destroyed early on in the campaign. What do you think?
It’s not always best to fly the F-16 at maximum altitude but of course given the situation that your not in any type of threat and you can defeat any missile if your launched upon than you can fly at max altitude (30,000 to 40,000 speed > 400knots). In other words, you have to fly at an altitude where you can perform a defense maneuver without bleeding off energy. For example, if you have to create distance from an incoming missile. Performing a split S will hurt you because your losing energy and your basically a target that’s not moving away from the missile. You want to pitch down (20 degrees) to gain more speed and drag that missile down to earth as you further create distance by beaming it. Also, in a campaign situation you should have setup boxes of area (STPT pointers) where you can drag the bogey and engage or dogfight the bogey with friendly ground forces or away from enemy forces. Other good habits that you should take into consideration as you fly towards you package objective. You should always scan every landscape, landmark, and airspace to have a picture of save zones to fly to if in trouble.
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I dont know if this is already covered somewhere, but is it possible to fire the Amraam at a datalinked target (from your wingman) with your own radar off? The missile is guided using a datalink between you and the missile and not your radar so i guess in theory it would work, right? I guess it depends on things like the update rate of the datalink between you and your wingman and other factors… Anyone tested it in FBMS?
I haven’t tested that out and not sure if it works that way. I do have a tactic that could work in that sense. If your wingman locks up a target and either datalinks or you located his locked target on you HSD. You can get close within 10 or 15nm radar off and making sure you select BORE mode for a MADDOG launch. Doing so will enable you to sneak in and fire of your aim-120 so that the missile can auto-lock the target by itself but keep in mind that your wingman or other friendly jets are not close by.
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Paveway
I totally agree with you, it is really what one should do to keep its Situational awarness.
But one thing is for sure … the menace on the ground will limit you in your option for defensive manouvers against an air threat.
I wonder what kind of rules of engagement here are when it is at the first days of war, a lot os SAMS, and detection radars etc …looking for you …
This actually where you see, the advantage of having a silent hunter like the F-22 in your arsenal, i was also considering the fact that like Ragnarda said, altitude is a good firend.
When i look at how powerfull an F-22, Urofighter, Rafale in terms of engine thrust is, … i start to understand why htey can be a key in air combat.
Not only for dogfight, but also for gaining altitude quickly.
From both of you with your exprience in BMS, do you know if the AI i hte F-22 or Eurofighter takes adavantage of that capaicity ?
thans guy for sahring
I think that the F-22 or any other AI fighter jets is computed to act the same in an defense or offense engagement but of course F-22 has a more superior capability. If you have one in your campaign it would not hurt to bring one with you as an escort if you really need one. During the start of a campaign I would make sure that E-8 is there to give you more info on ground units. As you plan out your mission make sure you setup STPT points of area’s of interest such as DMZ line between friend and foe, Dogfight zones, friendly forces zones and an area where you don’t want to be stuck in. Also bring a HTS pod with you could help as well.
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I think that the F-22 or any other AI fighter jets is computed to act the same in an defense or offense engagement but of course F-22 has a more superior capability. If you have one in your campaign it would not hurt to bring one with you as an escort if you really need one. During the start of a campaign I would make sure that E-8 is there to give you more info on ground units. As you plan out your mission make sure you setup STPT points of area’s of interest such as DMZ line between friend and foe, Dogfight zones, friendly forces zones and an area where you don’t want to be stuck in. Also bring a HTS pod with you could help as well.
Thank you Paveway,
Yes during Campaigns i really pay close attention to what i see in my UI map, i’m looking at all the potential threats i could encounter and look for friendly zones, and like you said, it is really a good idea to place steer points where you know friendly air defence is on the ground. It is a real world tactic, i read this book where the story about The Dutch pilot shooting down the Mig-29 in the balkans. The Mig-29 at one moment was trying to force the F-16 MLU to chase him into the engagement zone of a sam site.
the original manual of Falcon, where at the end a mission in Falcon is described is useful too in terms of tips.