Suggestion for database, data supply
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Basicly we have to choose between two profiles.
Against low-medium al targets this thrust-time characteristic is used.
Against high flying and distant targets this.
The booster stage is WIP, it should be bigger, the speed after the solid fuel rocket booster stage is about 800 m/s (1550 kts)
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As usual the weight data is very inaccurate.
Original data
6172.94 # Weight of Missile (lbs)
3800 # Weight of propellant (lbs)RL data
Translation of important data.
Total weight of 2nd stage: 3900 kg (~8’600 lb)
Weight of fuel (TG-02): 586 kg (~1’300 lb)
Weight of oxidyzer (AK-27P): 1680 kg (~3’700 lb)
Total weight of propellant: 2266 kg (~5’000 lb)
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Burnout weight = (Total weight of 2nd stage)-(Total weight of propellant) = 3’600 lbTranslating to Falcon
3600 # Weight of Missile (lbs)
5000 # Weight of propellant (lbs) -
Thank you so much molni for the work you do!
BMS Falcon is a great F-16 simulator - the greatest on PC.
AND: Falcon is a simulator with dynamic campaign engine - no other flight sim has that.The database is the flesh on the sceleton and even part of the nerval system in this camp engine i think.
It is sad that even the most common things (AA/AG missiles/enemy planes/…) a falconeer encounters on a campaign flight are not realisticly modelled at all.
… i’m coming thirsty out of the OF desert (i remember a “Yoda missile thread” or so) - don’t know about the FF database (i read somewhere here that they did something about it)-anyhow:
wonderful to see that someone takes care of this >lack< in realism (finally).:D
for now we fly the most realistic F-16 - you seem to add the most realistic campaign machine. :bdance:
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It is sad that even the most common things (AA/AG missiles/enemy planes/…) a falconeer encounters on a campaign flight are not realisticly modelled at all.
The problem is more serious. You can argue about realism factor but SA-3/5 simply do not work because of their modeling values.
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Test result with original values. The ACMI have been uploaded, you can identify by its filename.
The vertical dashed line shows the moment where missile passed beyond the target (me), after ~85 sec of flying.
Flight path is not so bad, but speed characteristics is totally wrong. In RL. Likely the program 105 was used.
100kN thrust 0-40 sec, then dropping the thrust to 32 kN 40-60 sec.It is still a big question what for me what thrust model should be applied in later stage. It is very time consuming to show all result and I have reference about only very high alt test. Even if I set better drag data, at low altitude with program 105 missile can break Mach 4 at low, which in RL was a structural limit. Maybe, I have to choose the intermedet solution the 153-201 thrust char.
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No i know why those Sa-3 and SA-5 don’t hit me even i just evade them with all my boms under wings and cat 3
This is very,very bad broblem. Is there any way to fix it even bit for next relase?
Good work Molni :headb:
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Test results in Excel with two different thrust char.
http://www.mediafire.com/?jh02tb8vohjni74
ACMI files are availabe the posted link.
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http://www.mediafire.com/?n6ff9wtnbn44ri9
Engagement zone of S-200.
I prefer to use program 201, even it is unreal for high altitude targets, but because of the limited engagement distance and bubble it is more suitable against low and high flying tagerst eihter in Falcon’s environment. You can see that against low flying closing target the engagement distance is much smaller.
FM is not fine tuned but better than original.
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I have many russian performance graphs myself (mostly jets) …but why is it that they always appear as being written on toilettepaper after a good vodka night…or is that just me ?
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Stealth flag controls the day/night operations as I know.
That is all……it doe’s
You set it on and then they will only be tasked to fly at night……;)
demer
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AoA tweaks on F-15, effect both on player and AI controlled AC.
Tuning the F-15, what is the point to reduce the angle of attack, unless the original model of the flight is not correct? CL, CD, does not correspond to reality. And if you reduce the angle of attack is what happens to the insant turn?
Are you sure that the mass of the missile is calculated in this way?
Formula or line of falcon code?
How about the other changes to the A-A missile:
Gimbal Angle Limit (deg)
Gimbal Angle Rate Limit (deg/sec)
Field of View (deg)
Missile loft time
What range we transfere to terminal guidance
maxGTerminal
maxGNormal
?
And when you change engine burntout time and engine thrust, where the check for the total momentum? -
Tuning the F-15, what is the point to reduce the angle of attack, unless the original model of the flight is not correct? CL, CD, does not correspond to reality. And if you reduce the angle of attack is what happens to the insant turn?
Hard FM tweak is fary beyond my skills. As I have said the turning capablity is literally the sam because of very hig drag and small increase of lift you can sustain a turn. Buy the pro version of Tacview and check turn rate, AoA and other curves.
Are you sure that the mass of the missile is calculated in this way?
Yes. I can show you on a video if you wish.
Gimbal Angle Limit (deg)
Gimbal Angle Rate Limit (deg/sec)
Field of View (deg)These lines in dat files do not have funciton as I can remember. IR sensor tweaks are defined in DB as well as a part of radar seeker propertes, ICD and RCD entries. (They are linked with dat files in \data\sim\radar by a value in and radar.lst either)
Mis
sile loft time
What range we transfere to terminal guidanceFor which missile? Terminal gudiance maybe have effect on radar guided missiles (chaff sensitivy?), but I’m not sure. I do not know the code I just tested deeply FF, but not in BMS4.
Other problem that in Falcon these values are static but RL behavior is not static. Maybe the code depending of launch angle, distance and altitude alter the used equation for the same modeling values, but this is also exe dependent…maxGTerminal
maxGNormalFor which missile? For some, theí seem to me OK - they are not unbelievable - for some, data is not available.
And when you change engine burntout time and engine thrust, where the check for the total momentum?
Khöm, you can’t check total momentum, because there reference about total momentum is not available. It is a smaller miracle that you find the AIM-7F/M and AIM-9L thrust values. The trust of AIM-120 and other latest gen. missile is confidental. The features are known - AIM-120 have similar profile asa AIM-7F/M but the exact value is not puclic.
As you can see for Russian SAMs time-velocity, time-distance and distance-alt profiles are available or can be counted from each other. Beecause the fuel consumption is modeled momentum is not depends only on velocty. BTW it is an interesting question that fuel consumption is linear or following the thrust profile. I’m able test this by setting exrteme thrust profiles and weights to see the effect of changes. IMHO, this part is a “who cares” issue, because even the baisc engeagement range and kinematic parameres are wrong moreover, some of them are not functional.
My goal is to make better the sim. As I have said my tweaks are not fine tuned but as long as they are close to RL behavior within 90-95%, I’m happy comparing with current situation. For many missile RL behavior cannot be copied because of static DB and data modeling. You can see this on SA-5 or SA-2. They can have different thrust as well as pursuit method. You can’t simulate this 100% accurately but something close is possible.
I’m against “to make the finest model in the wide world, but with 1000 hour of work and waiting years even for baisc fix” if the “relasing 90% accurate FUNCTIONAL model with 20 hour of work” is possible. If somebody will make a better F-15 FM or something I will be happy. If somebody will make such a SAM model, that brings closer result to RL I will be happy. But as long as that time won’t come and most of devs do not care about red stuff (or blue DB inaccuracies either) I won’t stop, as 'Ara said.
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Buy the pro version of Tacview and check turn rate, AoA and other curves.
There is no need for me, all values are easily calculated, but it takes much time
Download Aerodynamics BooksYes. I can show you on a video if you wish.
and what I see out there?
general rule does not require, a precise formula for calculatingThese lines in dat files do not have funciton as I can remember. IR sensor tweaks are defined in DB as well as a part of radar seeker propertes, ICD and RCD entries.
You are mistaken, these values are considered for missiles with thermal, and active or semi-active guidance. It limiters
In the database, section IR Data, Radar Data value - the maximum gimbal angle onlyFor which missile? Terminal gudiance maybe have effect on radar guided missiles (chaff sensitivy?), but I’m not sure. I do not know the code I just tested deeply FF, but not in BMS4.
affects all missiles, even air - ground missiles
Khöm, you can’t check total momentum, because there reference about total momentum is not available.
I will write later
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Download Aerodynamics Books
I’m a mechanial engineer, my faculty was flow mechanics.
and what I see out there?
general rule does not require, a precise formula for calculatingWhat formula? Weight is simpla data. You can add and or subract the two weight lines. What was your question? What did mean for you “this way”?I tested, exe handles separately the two weight data, the propellant and burnout weight. I checked the basic missiles - and later less basic - and I found that burnout weight in Falcon = total launch weight in RL therefore ALL, I repeat ALL dat files are wrong because aero data - if ever checked somebody - built around a wrong weight. What formula is reqired to verify this statement? Simply set bigger propellant weight as the other weight. If exe subract the prop. w. you should get negative weight… You can do another test. Set 1 lbs propellan and 499 lbs empty wegiht for AIM-7. That do it reverse. What you will see confirm that missile weight is added from two data. In first case because of constant weight the acceleration and deaccleretaion will be much different than in second case.
I’m crazy that I have to write this n+1 times. What will be ever check anybody who “challange” my aspect…?
It is not so strange that if I set RL thrust and weight the missile performance close to real shownig that other aero data cause the sligh difference…? (Just check SA-2 data.)
You are mistaken, these values are considered for missiles with thermal, and active or semi-active guidance. It limiters
In the database, section IR Data, Radar Data value - the maximum gimbal angle onlyHave you tested? Because I did Loooooooooooooooooooong time ago ˙(~4,5 years) when I opened first time dat files. I tried to play with these values. They did not worked. Just for you I did it again. I changed the values of AIM-9L/M, nothing happend. ICD entries rule the IR sensor properties concerning gimbal value, ranges, flare sensitvity and if ever worked, the FOV.
I can’t see the point of your post… Do you wish to help or critize me…?
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thinking about one
wrote about another
Here is the correctTotal impulse (Суммарный импульс) = available power (энерговооруженность ракеты) * mass of missile (массу ракеты) = the average thrust (средняя тяга двигателя) * burnout time (время работы двигателя).
1kg = 2.2046 lb1.JPG
mass of missile - pointed red
available power - pointed blueTotal impulse
aim-120b ~ 30500 lb-s
aim-120c5 ~ 34500 lb-s -
This post is deleted! -
I know, but this tells you 0 info about characteristics…
I will try to find somebody who will translate this stuff maybe there is some useful data. Where did you find?
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Have you tested? Because I did Loooooooooooooooooooong time ago ˙(~4,5 years) when I opened first time dat files. I tried to play with these values. They did not worked. Just for you I did it again. I changed the values of AIM-9L/M, nothing happend. ICD entries rule the IR sensor properties concerning gimbal value, ranges, flare sensitvity and if ever worked, the FOV.
it seems you are right, so I mixed up with another version
too bad for bms
@molnibalage:I know, but this tells you 0 info about characteristics…
I will try to find somebody who will translate this stuff maybe there is some useful data. Where did you find?
You can check the values of the average thrust in the original there is a lot of errors for all A-A missiles
book “Авиация ПВО России и научно-технический прогресс. Боевые комплексы и системы вчера, сегодня, завтра”
there is a slight inaccuracy in the table
but for the bms will fit -
Currently I can’t upload to youtube, because my net is unstable. I can upload only to MF.
SA-5 comparsion video. I used program 201. The difference is clearly visible. If the engagement range can be increasd with new model against med/high flying targets the ragne is very, very big.
http://www.mediafire.com/?d48dr38b95yf23w
I have no time to test, but maybe the eng. reange is linked with bubble distance value. I have to check.
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just found the su 27 flight manual (I believe… downloading now)
also I tranformed the above from djvu to pdf…holly Fxxk Bullseye… SU-27SK… converting to pdf… will try and auto translate to Greek lol…
pdf ready.
Trying to make it editable pdf…Mig 29 GAY (No engine data) flight manual in English: http://airspot.ru/book/file/1058/Flight_manual_MIG-29.pdf