What happened to the SAAFOPS theater
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ZE: IIRC what the FF gents mentioned was the workload to import models, database and terrain. I assume the latter the least complicated. The entire project including campaigns would have been similarly big as ITO2 and that took 5 YEARS + for FF.
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What I heard was basically what Tom said. I don’t understand the mechanics of the conversion, but when someone like Ranger says you’re looking at years of work to convert the stuff to FF5, I believe him. Isn’t all that material floating around somewhere for download? Maybe converting it to BMS wouldn’t be as difficult (or maybe it would be more difficult…).
Just to go back to my previous post on this subject, this is another example of what I worry about with these multi-year theater projects. I don’t know how many man hours that guy invested in SAAFOPS, but it has to be a ton. By the time he was getting close to finishing, the sim had moved on. It does seem that Freefalcon and BMS are relatively stable versions of Falcon (well, FF is, I don’t really know about BMS), but dev’ing for BMS isn’t like dev’ing for a Total War game where the core game is essentially frozen in its current state.
I’m about to go on another long rant, and so I’m going to stop now. You guys get the gist of what I’m saying.
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Mad Dog McEwan just stopped his development and disappeared off the Falcon scene
It is rather strange for someone involved with Falcon4 not to pop in at least or acknowledge BMS appearance on the Falcon scene and its existence since. However, different (good and bad) things happen to all of us in RL, so here I maybe understand.
some of the best desert terrain tiles I had ever seen among those.
Not to take away anything , I have never seen anything beyond JUST that - few hires and impressive (for the current time and era) tiles.
but dev’ing for BMS isn’t like dev’ing for a Total War game where the core game is essentially frozen in its current state
Not quite understand, despite you do not want, would you kindly care to elaborate little further, please.
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Not quite understand, despite you do not want, would you kindly care to elaborate little further, please.
Agreed, I’d like to know a bit more about this too. I’ve imported all my stuff into a vanilla install (DB models, UI, etc etc.) in an hour or so. So, the only game changers I can see is if the terrain and or the campaigns become incompatible but I can’t see how that would happen since all BMS does is rely on L2 terrain.
I’d like to know exactly what would take years to import/convert from Falcon versions.
There was another issue that may have been a show-stopper for some reason and that is that he wanted to sell his theatre (you can still see it on Pre-order status for 30$). Maybe it was a business risk reduction decision?
Cheers
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I think the “Issue” was converting the Model’s to DXM for use in FF. I’m not sure whether Mad Dog had that skill or Tool available to him. If you look at his post’s after returning to FF.He was eager for help and understanding.
He got neither at the time.Just a lot of Nay Saying from the FF God.No wonder he gave up.
Converting to BMS would be easy.demer
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Ahhh…zo my suspicion back up in post number 5 is correct it seems.
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@ Ted and Zelegend,
What I mean is that Falcon evolved from whatever version he started with (FF3, FF4, SP Falcon, whatever) to FF5. The change to FF5, from what I understand, rendered a lot of his work unusable- that whole model conversion thing.You’ve seen something similar, although not nearly as destructive, with PMC where as Freefalcon evolved a new theater installer was required for each version.
Do any of Aeyes’ cockpits work with BMS?
As these core versions of Falcon are (or were) still under development, something created earlier might not be compatible with the “next” version of Falcon as it comes available and the public moves to that version. BMS is still being developed. I have no idea what the core development will bring, but there is certainly the possibility that some change in the code will make all of the present theater work incompatible.
Total War has a very robust modding community. Using Medieval Total War 2 as an example, it is patched up and unlikely to have any further code changes. If you spend a year making a mod for it, you don’t really have to worry about the core game changing to make your work incompatible. You do still have to worry about that with BMS, in my opinion.
Both Panama and my Nevada mod worked in Freefalcon 4. _They worked! By “worked” I mean moving ground units and a winnable war. No matter how much I have tried, I have not been able to figure out what changed between FF4 and FF5 to stop them from working. If I had invested 2 years in those theaters I would have been very upset; as it was, it was a few hundred hours at most and such is life.
So, back to my point, all I’m saying is that there is some merit to concentrating on projects with timelines measured in months rather than years so if something changes in the Falcon core, at least your work will be relevant for some period of time, rather than have Falcon move on before you ever release ala SAFOPS._
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I may elaborate demer928’s post is actually not correct here. And demer928 was present at the time this was discussed…since I recall you at those TS meetings.
I never got involved deeper and only was told about it in private discussions at FF’s private board.
MadDog got the invitation to work with FF. The SECOND time somewhere around 2010 IIRC. He was the one to stop communicating IIRC.
Ranger822 was in contact AFAIK and I do not recall how long they estimated this work, but at that time-any possible revisit of SAAFOPS was estimated to take at least one or two years. At a very moderate guess IIRC.
Anyway, ask ranger822 at FF or pm Hustler, they know. I’m no dev and currently far less as ever before;), but I do recall converting such an old project is way more than copy and paste and reorganize a few files. -
He got neither at the time.Just a lot of Nay Saying from the FF God.No wonder he gave up.
This is not quite correct. I was present during those talks on the FF forum.
The crux of the matter was that the whole thing needed tons of time and no one wanted, or could commit seriously to the task of converting. In a way it was a waste of time, because the whole Angolan project was done quite elegantly (including website) . Too elegantly , if you ask me, leading me to believe that maybe there were some intentions to go commercial. And that was perhaps another aspect of the case why Angolan theater never got to the public. To make long story short , I agree with Toonces that too long projects may become obsolete , but at the same time, to be decent, they require reasonable time to be constructed and properly outfitted.
PS. while Tom replied I was still typing :)……
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Glad you typed it since it prooves I was partially spot on with my old memories. Nothing personal, mother Dave, just the facts. There was support after a long discussion.
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The only two people that are any where close to what transpired in regards to SAAFOPS are Tom and Polak.;) No one else is even close.
The only part that they have missed and aren’t aware of are the behind the scenes conversations on the Core Development Group forums.
Only three active developers here on the BMS forums were in that group at FF and were a part of those discussions(1 not so much) and until this post, have not said a word about SAAFOPS. As far as I’m concerned what happened and why with SAAFOPS is really no ones business and is no longer relevant to the Falcon community and for good reason.
With that said, speculate at will.
RAM22
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:munch::D
Tom
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Polak’s ITO2 work to this day IMHO is the best working finished terrain mod available for Falcon. And also ITO2 IMHO should be the 1st choice for all future edits in FF and BMS.
And Ted is correct, there seemed to be always similar shots of SAAFOPS, not sure how the entire theatre would have looked.
What I liked especially besides some shots of photorealistic airbases and savanna tiles were the very well executed 2D cockpit (shots) and the nice 3D aircraft models.
I would have loved to see the Hawk 2D cockpit etc and Mirage F-1 2D cockpit in FF TBH.Tom
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Thank you Toonces for explaining ….I understand more now.
If I had invested 2 years in those theaters I would have been very upset; as it was, it was a few hundred hours at most and such is life.
The main loss of time is if and when the problems never get resolved. Then unfortunately it nothing BUT only lost time!
If progression from FF4 to FF5 brought some serious, if not outright killing, impedance to inner simulation and AI workings preventing proper troop interaction, then this should have been investigated and possibly rectified in most diligent manner. If was not done from whatever reasons, then there was problem with FF, which possibly should be avoided, if only possible, here @ BMS.
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@RAM22:
The only two people that are any where close to what transpired in regards to SAAFOPS are Tom and Polak.;) No one else is even close.
The only part that they have missed and aren’t aware of are the behind the scenes conversations on the Core Development Group forums.
Only three active developers here on the BMS forums were in that group at FF and were a part of those discussions(1 not so much) and until this post, have not said a word about SAAFOPS. As far as I’m concerned what happened and why with SAAFOPS is really no ones business and is no longer relevant to the Falcon community and for good reason.
With that said, speculate at will.
RAM22
There were no “behind the scene’s” conversation’s on your private board’s,other than the Question “should we”???There were some Telephone Convos’ at that time,that you were not privy to.That being said,there is no reason here to retry what Mad Dog had started.
demer
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There was not some grand issue between FF4 and FF5 that prevented any campaigns from being won or lost per se. The problem lied in the fact that Panama was not brought up to the DB changes and also Panama had many terrain issues that were always present in that theater.
Unless/until all of that is brought to current standards it will always continue to suffer in those regards.
RAM22
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There were no “behind the scene’s” conversation’s on your private board’s,other than the Question “should we”???There were some Telephone Convos’ at that time,that you were not privy to.That being said,there is no reason here to retry what Mad Dog had started.
demer
LOFL, believe what you wish.:D
RAM22
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@RAM22:
LOFL, believe what you wish.:D
RAM22
Your abstract response is what I expected……remember though, that when I withdrew from the CDG,I still had right’s to the other Fora and CVS.As well, I still was in contact with “You Know Who” to help solve some of YOUR issue’s…LOL
Believe what you wish……HAHAHAHA!!!demer
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Stop please, your making me ROTF, don’t know if I can take much more……
So please tell me about the Package then!!!
RAM22