Fallon-Nevada Theater discussion
-
Ted,
I had no idea you had this much stuff for Nevada laying around. I’m not completely fixated on Fallon- my house isn’t there or something like that- so if we want to bump it up to 64 segments to encompass Las Vegas that is fine with me.My entering argument for a Nevada/Fallon theater (or any theater in general) is that it has to have a tight enough focus that we can actually finish it in a reasonable amount of time. The larger you make a theater, the more stuff you fill it with and then the more troubleshooting you have to do. If we make it 64 segments, just keep in mind that as a campaign creator my intentions will be to focus the campaign into a small area…and even that might be troublesome.
Let me use the PMC Nevada as an example. I built my Fulda scenario such that a ground war would take place around Las Vegas. All of the interesting stuff was happening withing say 120nm radius of LV. But because you had red/blue objectives all the way out at places like San Diego and way up north, the ATO would schedule flights that really had no bearing on the scenario. To some extent this can be fixed by deleting all of those distant objectives- we have the terrain built but it will be “empty” terrain with no objectives there. This gets a little beyond what I know how to do but I think I can figure it out; might just need to properly build the PAK map or something.
A few final thoughts: if we have to deal with a tile limit then so be it. Maybe it would be possible to build/use some generic desert sand tiles for the majority of the area and just use your photoreal tiles in areas were it will have the most impact? So if we do 64 segments including LV, you photoreal LV and the immediate surrounding area, go to generic sand for the majority of the rest of the map, and maybe stick in a few photoreal mountains and stuff in the area where the main campaign action is taking place…it’s a compromise but we have to work with what we have.
I flew PMC Nevada for years and enjoyed the heck out of it even with those weird orange tiles. I’m sure we can find a decent compromise.
Lastly, I have to point out again that I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO CREATE A TERRAIN. I can work with TacEdit all day, and F4Browse to some extent, but I simply cannot figure out how to create a terrain and tile it. I’m happy to give creative direction and lead like that, but I can’t do the grunt work of creating the terrain.
-
@DJ:
Thank you for the kind offer. I grabbed your Nevada theater when it was still hosted so I have the materials to use. If/when we get somewhere with this I’ll coordinate with you to figure out the best way to integrate it. -
Can we use any of the old Operation Desert Storm tiles for this? Those were created by Bonedust if I’m not mistaken.
-
I think that Nevada theater is quite well advanced and soon could be worked on collectively in order to determine its final bounds and campaign mechanics.
Yesterday, I did Falon AB. So for now we have two major Nevada Airbases with cities around them and ATM it is time to think about adapting Falcon 4 airbase models to it. Original theater has too many other airbases and making theater smaller would maybe solve the problem and save on work and time. Rest of the theater is also pretty much tiled, but by no means finished and there are some serious areas of problem (rivers and lakes and water reserv.)
My mentioning yesterday the tile limits was not to declare or excuse work progress stopagge, but perhaps and just to underscore our desire to have that handicap removed.
-
My mentioning yesterday the tile limits was not to declare or excuse work progress stopagge, but perhaps and just to underscore our desire to have that handicap removed.
Same reasoning for my post also…
-
Ted,
We can probably work with 2-4 airbases from which to fly the planes in the campaign. My idea would be to have a handful of real airbases, the ones where planes are actually flying from, and then maybe- if we need them- a couple of “fake” airbases for OCA strikes. I can’t stress enough that it’s important to keep the initial number of objectives small. I think it would be much easier (and faster) to start small and get bigger if we need to, than start big and have to trim it down.What base Nevada terrain are you using? Do you have something you can send me to look at?
-
I agree. I am going to send you something soon.
-
Polak,
You and the other theater builders are truly awesome. I’m amazed at how difficult it is to build a theater and further amazed that you continue to do it knowing how difficult it is.This looks great. I hope to fly it someday.
v/r
Bryan -
Guys, is there anything that can be done by outsiders to help? Any part of the process that would not take long to learn how to do and I could help with? Improving the terrain and tiles in Falcon is the probably my biggest hope for future development, all other things being equal. let me know, rgds, MArk
-
Yes … that could be a great training terrain!
-
Everything in Falcon are hard to learn!!! And even Harder to make them… For Terrain download Monters Terrain Editor aka TE and start playing with it… just have a full backup first… Ain’t that user friendly and sure u will FUBAR your Falcon setup…
First time I opened that tool (which is a masterpiece) the first thing I did was to close it… lol Frightening lol I had nightmares for weeks… :rofl:
Also join EMF’s forum to read Monster’s and Polak’s Posts…
Also have PMC wiki and read it… wow what a headache!!! u get lost there… as the Falcon Database…
Also search in this Forum…
Also buy beers…
Also buy vitamins…
:rofl: -
Arty,
thanks for mentioning Monster and his invaluable Terrain Editor. He is here true unsung hero because without his tool creation of the terrain would be truly difficult task. And thanks to Terrain Editor it is not, instead it is quite easy and pleasure to work.
It never cease to amaze me that after getting familiar with it it has still surprises for me and new ways to do things.All who want to try are most strongly encouraged to use it and join with comments how to improve. Sakis is always listening and ready to implement any suggestion. I can go forever ….
Same accolades are deserved by Bald Eagle and other developers and programmers past and present. Some of them are maybe little less intuitive, but very ingenious and it takes some work to really get to know them and appreciate.
-
Be careful where you fly in this theater, area 51 is close…:p
-
In reading this thread,I see once again how easily we get led astray……Hmmmmphf!!!
IMHO we should return our effort’s to Panama,AS a Community.MUCH to be done there.
BUT the work B4 and what is now is much easier to handle then another “NEW” Theater.
Though I applaud Toonce’s for his idea’s and effort’s.
Remember “Toonce’s” is a cartoon cat from the 50’s and Cat’s are hard to Herd……LOL!!!
On the Flip side,I\we have the original Nevada Theater,by the ORIGINAL author,on our archive’s.
Nothing SM or other’s can do about it……HAHAHAA!!! As well as many more, B4 PMC went online in 2002.I would like to see us focus on Panama for the minute.See what we can do there first.
Up to youz’ guy’s.
As alway’s,I’m here to support when I can,
demer -
my vote goes for Nevada,
Any respecting NATO/Airforce is training in programs in this area and still F4 community has no real training area (besides KOTAR)
With all the VFW this would be a nice place to test and train and even have PVP like the current RedFlag campaign with Team Archer -
Dave,
I can work on two things at once.But more importantly, I have an idea that I really want to try with Nevada. I want to see if it is possible to cull a theater down to a really small size and produce it in a short amount of time. Instead of a theater with 1000 units and 500 objectives, maybe something with 100 units and 20 objectives….
I am still trying to understand the ground war in this sim. But…I’m never going to get anywhere with a huge theater- even something as small as Panama is too big to really test things in a reasonable manner.
Let’s press with this. If it gets too complicated we can always back off and reassess.
-
Please decide how big new Nevada theater is going to be and where it will be centered on.
Here are few options:
A. 32 seg theater centered on Fallon (does not cover Las Vegas and Nellis)
B.64 seg theater centered on Fallon (does cover Las Vegas and Nellis which is in right bottom corner)
C.32 seg theater centered on SOMEWHERE (does cover Fallon in left upper and Las Vegas and Nellis in bottom right)
Perhaps there are some other options including looking at Dave’s pre PMC Nevada mentioned in his earlier post siZe???) or sticking or other version 64 I have, which was given to me by (as I believe Tony of FF).
I strongly feel that 32 size theater is very tight to fly (unless maybe in variant A). However, I realize that smaller size is less terrain work and more manageable, especially if we are to go from scratch.
Version C, evenhough desired, because I have Las Vegas and Nellis tiles is too restricted on any axis except for NE and SW.Please make comments.
-
Dave,
I can work on two things at once.But more importantly, I have an idea that I really want to try with Nevada. I want to see if it is possible to cull a theater down to a really small size and produce it in a short amount of time. Instead of a theater with 1000 units and 500 objectives, maybe something with 100 units and 20 objectives….
We\Mystic have already done this in BFS.Take’s sometime to remake the Path’s\Link’s correct….for the GU’sI am still trying to understand the ground war in this sim. But…I’m never going to get anywhere with a huge theater- even something as small as Panama is too big to really test things in a reasonable manner.
Let’s press with this. If it gets too complicated we can always back off and reassess.
TWO thing’s at once….LOL!!!Try SIX thing’s at once…no wonder GUAM is lagging a bit behind…HAHAHA!
I FULLY agree with starting small,objective wise.Too many year’s of stuffing “stuff” into her.We can now have “Ghost” Airbase’s,thank’s to the BMS Carrier code,that we can use for the AI.From a campain’ development standpoint this is important.
I’ll give you an example and let the Cat outta’ the bag abit as far as GUAM is concerned:These two AB’s really don’t exist for the Human Player,but are important for the AI B52’s as an objective to get to.So for them to get there,which is “WAY” off my MAP, the ATM generate’s Escort’s\HAVCAP’s for them,some of those,the Human is assigned to
It get’s QUITE busy in the Theater,quite fast, in Guam.I’ve heard from the ALPHA tester’s that ten minute’s of flight B4 you are engaged is rare.
But the WAR end’s as soon as a Team\Side reach an advantage in Airframe’s.This we could apply to Fallon and forget about a “GroundWar” for “ENDGAME”.
Though you can still have GU’s to shoot at,their importance in “ENDGAME” is NULL.Go ahead and press ahead,if someone need’s the original map I’ll provide it (Credit due to the author this time) Seem’s Ted is already on it!!!
As alway’s,I got your back if you run into trouble’s.
demer -
Ted,
Let me do some research on this. Before I arbitrarily pick a solution, maybe the best thing is to research the “real world” training areas and then build the terrain around those. Ideally I’d like to use option C encompassing both Fallon and Nellis on one map. I think the training areas for Nellis are to the NW which would work, but I’m actually not sure on that.I agree 32 segments can be tight. My preference, personally, is for a pre-AMRAAM campaign in which 32 segments is probably fine. We can build a modern campaign just for those that want to experiment with it. Ideally, though, we’re talking pre-1991 AIM-7s on all jets (or less).
Anyway, if we’re going to build a terrain, let’s take a moment to figure out how close we can get to “real life” and then work from there. Surely there are some smart Nellis guys on the boards that can help with this.
@Dave,
I have considered doing the campaign based on attrition. This is something that I’ll need to experiment with; see what’s actually fun. I will definitely need to get some help with the whole fake airbase thing….we can address that much later when it comes up. -
The second option would be a dream to fly in even as a sightseeing tour only but I assume that it involves way too many different landscapes to be delivered successfully. I applaude the idea of Nevada since it was what I always wanted in FF.