Suggestion for database, data supply
-
-
will try to answer what I was able to translate
From OSD data R-27ER has about 33’000 kgs total impulse, using your dat files means about ~26’000 kgs after a quick calculation.
I only have the data from the manual to Mig-29, which states the following I will try to translate into English:
The R-27E is equipped with dual-mode solid engine weighing 192.5 kg thrust increase (up to 7500 kg), running up to 11 seconds. During his time at start-up rocket engine provides a velocity increment of missile flight speed fighter for the P-27ER (EP) 800-1000 m / s and R-27ET to 700-1100 m / s
But, this is not total impulse data.
(How you achieve that AI controlled AI does not do any turn?)
Use a program F4brovze, disconnected the sensor RWRs , like this:
http://f4.foto.rambler.ru/preview/r/668x825/50b8c26e-98b6-040f-f420-2ba76c9439db/17.jpg
Then fly in Dogfight mode, it is convenient to set the height and distance to the targetJust one more suggestion. Pl. use labels during tests if you record video and the best option use ACMI and share the VHS file. I have Tacview pro, which is a wonderful too the analyze the test results.
Have you tested the range on lower altitudes?
Right now, recorded for target at medium altitude = 5 km (16,400 ft) and a distance 37 km (20 NM) which we can see in the graph of the R-27ER lauch ranges
When missile speed dropped to ~ 610 knots , she hit the target is flying straight.ACMI: https://files.myopera.com/SpbGoro/LO_2_Patches/27ER_37KM_5KM_ALT.zip
With mine thurst + your drag = wonderful result. I will check in the next week. (Hopefully).
Very good!
-
Use a program F4brovze, disconnected the sensor RWRs , like this:
I know and use F4B.
Regardless of lack of RWR AI evades radar guided missiles for me.
OSD data was posted here.
Calculation for thrust.
If the first or second stage thrust of R-27ER is avilable with duration the rest of thurst can be extrapolated or estimated by using total impulse.
-
Thanks, interesting!
Then the real missile R-73, the average thrust 17129/6.8 = 2518 (lb)R-27ER = 350*94=32900 (72500 lb)
(My Old dat: 16000.0+10000.0+10000.0+10000.0+10000.0+2400.0+2400.0+2400.0+2400.0+2400.0 = 68 000)
I updated AA-10C/D Dat at previous page, with new impulse:
16000.0+11000.0+11000.0+11000.0+11000.0+2500.0+2500.0+2500.0+2500.0+2500.0 = 72500
Now, for target at medium altitude = 5 km (16,400 ft) and a distance 37 km (20 NM), missile impact at ~ 630 knots.
ACMI: https://files.myopera.com/SpbGoro/LO_2_Patches/Impulse72500.zip
R-77 Dat also updated at previous page, with new impulse:
177*79= 13980 = 30820/6 =5136 lb/s
5135.0+5135.0+5135.0+5135.0+5135.0+5135 = 30810 lbP.s
Forgot to mention, also in my files, MACH BREAKPOINTS was adjusted
–—to : 0 / 0.4 / 0.8 / 0.95 / 1.05 / 1.2 / 1.6 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 4.5
Default : 0 / 0.4 / 0.8 / 0.95 / 1.05 / 1.2 / 1.6 / 2 / 3 / 4.5 / 6That was нelped to reduce the speed in some conditions
P.P.S
R-27, R and T will correct later
-
Where did you found the burn times of missiles? Because I had only the total impulse data, but burn times in my edits were just estimations.
-
Data from Mig-29 manual:
R-73 : На ракете впервые применена комбинированная аэрогазодинамическая система управления, где управление ракетой по тангажу и курсу на активном участке полета (при работающем до 6,8 секунд двигателе), которое осуществляется совместно аэродинамическими рулями и газодинамическими интерцепторами, отклоняющими реактивную струю двигателя.
translate into English:
The rocket was first used combined aerogazodinamicheskaya control system where control missile pitch and rate for powered flight (running running up to 6.8 seconds of the engine), a collaboration between aerodynamic control surfaces and the gas-dynamic spoilers, deflecting the jet stream engine.
R-27E: Ракета Р-27Э комплектуется двухрежимным твердотопливным двигателем массой 192,5 кг повышенной тяги (до 7500 кг), работающим до 11 секунд.
translate into English:
The R-27E is equipped with dual-mode solid engine weighing 192.5 kg thrust increase (up to 7500 kg), running up to 11 seconds.
For the R-77 no documents.But there are indirect sources of information:
As well as video, where the engine is running - can watch and count (~6 sec)
I Found a very interesting document
http://www.mediafire.com/?pu8c7ur8ay8wgyz
In game default: AIM-120B/C # Weight of propellant = 154 (lbs)
According to the document:RCKT MTR, WPU-6/B - AIM-120 B/C/C-4 Weight of propellant = 102.600 (lbs) 46.5386 (kg)
RCKT MTR, WPU-16/B - AIM-120 C-5/C-6 Weight of propellant = 113.000 (lbs) 51.2559 (kg)
(Sounded very similar to the previous data from OSD: aim-120b ~ 30 500 lb-s*Э aim-120c5 ~ 34,500 lb-s)
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?8230-Suggestion-for-database-data-supply&p=110350&viewfull=1#post110350
In game default: AIM-54A/C # Weight of propellant = 400 (lbs)
According to the document:PROP SECT, MXU-637/B - AIM-54A PHOENIX 459.000 (lbs) 208.199 (kg)
PROP SECT, MXU-637A/B - AIM-54C PHOENIX 360.000 (lbs) 163.293 (kg)
In game default: AIM-7M # Weight of propellant = 120 (lbs)
According to the document:RCKT MTR, MK58-3/5 AIM-7 SPARROW Weight of propellant = 135.200 (lbs) 61.325 (kg)
And there are data on the weight of fuel many other missiles.
Also Some interesting data on the missile:
9М trust
54C burn time
-
The R-27E is equipped with dual-mode solid engine weighing 192.5 kg thrust increase (up to 7500 kg), running for 11 seconds.
R-27E = R-27ER?
I used the same video for R-77 what you showed.
The intel about AIM-54 is very interesting. It suggest that it had a low thrust, but very long burnt time. Some of my friends suspected this, but never had the data. I can make a new thrust char.
-
R-27E = R-27ER?
Yes , simbol “E” - energy version. (ER/ET)
I think Also interesting data shown on the chart (graph) for Aim-9 thrust history, from 0 to 6.2 sec.
And thrust history R-73 , might look something like this:
BURN TIME BREAKPOINTS = 9
0.00 +0.02 +1.00+ 2.00 +3.00 +4.00+ 5.80+ 6.8 +6.82
ENGINE THRUST (LBS)
THRST1
0.0+ 3618.0 +2518.0 +2419.0+ 2419.0 +2419.0 +2419.0 +1318.0 +0 = 17 130 (lb)
-
Roger.
Anothe issue. What can be the total impulse difference between AIM-54A, C and R-33? We have data only about R-33 which is ~85’000 lb*s. I set the same total impuse with ~27 sec burn time for AIM-54C, which means about only 3500 lb thrust for ~24s + a small transient for modeling the inital slow launch.
I was able to achieve more real launch effect, video comes soon.
-
-
Love all the collaboration here and hard work being put into updating the db.
Can’t think of a reason this stuff shouldn’t be updated for 4.33 official release! Here’s hoping!
-
Anothe issue. What can be the total impulse difference between AIM-54A, C and R-33?
We have data only about R-33 which is ~85’000 lb*s. I set the same total impuse with ~27 sec burn time for AIM-54C, which means about only 3500 lb thrust for ~24s + a small transient for modeling the inital slow launch.
R-33 = 52073 = 37960 = (83687 lb)
R-33E = 49073 = 35770 = 78860 (lb) (Probably R33E has a slightly different “available power” coefficient)“Difference between AIM-54” : I think - the “total impulse” of the R-33 a little less, because - it has a slightly shorter range.
These missiles have different engines, and different ways on the available energy.
For example Aim-54 spends energy (with ~ 45 degrees preprogrammed loft angle) to the climb at + >10000 meters relative to the altitude at which the run , then swoops down.
R-33 is increasingly supported by sustainer, (with ~ 35 degrees preprogrammed loft angle) climb at + >6000 meters relative to the altitude at which the run , then swoops down.The following data on the dual-mode engine P-33
time accelerator = 6.0 sec
time sustainer = 25.0 secWe can produce in a rocket experiment calculator.
Lauch alt = 10000 meters, speed = 0.9 M,
Target alt =10000 meters, speed = 0.8 MAdjusted data by weight of fuel and engine operating time for these missiles.
R-33 Weight of propellant = 570 (lbs) 260. (kg), time accelerator = 6.0 sec, time sustainer = 25.0 seс. (total = 31 sec), boost/sustain thrust ratio ~3 (like as R-27ER)
MXU-637/B - AIM-54A PHOENIX Weight of propellant = 459.000 (lbs) 208.199 (kg), boost time 27 sec.
You can download this tool and conduct experiments for different conditions.
http://www.ecf.utoronto.ca/~pavacic/missiles/minizap.zipBy default, there for some missiles - outdated inaccurate data (fuel, the engine running time) that can be manual fixed.
@molnibalage:looks very realistic!
I want to ask. Is information on the time of booster and sustainer rocket engines Aim-120?
-
The following data on the dual-mode engine P-33
time accelerator = 6.0 sec
time sustainer = 25.0 secIs this RL data?
Is information on the time of booster and sustainer rocket engines Aim-120?
I cannot understand the question. I do not have any intel about AIM-120 except that I can confirm the dual thrust capability and about the 8-9 sec burn time. Nothing else. I do not have total imulse and the thrust-time characteristics. OSD posted a value and it seems to be acceptable counting the size and weight of AMRAAM. Big question the difference between B and C-5 variant, the latest C variants have longer engine section.
-
Is this RL data?
Data from Eagle Dynamics, on this issue they have a good consultant from the MiG Design Bureau.
In the public domain there is no documentation on this missileI cannot understand the question. I do not have any intel about AIM-120 except that I can confirm the dual thrust capability and about the 8-9 sec burn time. Nothing else. I do not have total imulse and the thrust-time characteristics. OSD posted a value and it seems to be acceptable counting the size and weight of AMRAAM. Big question the difference between B and C-5 variant, the latest C variants have longer engine section.
Question about the allocation of time between booster and sustainer. We known total time = 8 sec.
for example, for Aim-7 missile, time allocation is as:
Accelerator (booster time) = 4.5 sec
Sustainer = 11 sec .
(total motor time = 15,5 sec)Big question the difference between B and C-5 variant, the latest C variants have longer engine section.
engine section. WPU-6/B - for AIM-120 variants B/C/C-4 Weight of propellant = 102.600 (lbs) 46.5386 (kg), similar to the data published by OSD: aim-120 ~ 30 500 lb-s
engine section. WPU-16/B - for AIM-120 variants C-5/C-6 Weight of propellant = 113.000 (lbs) 51.2559 (kg), similar to the data published by OSD: aim-120C-5 ~ 34 500 lb-s
(more fuel= more “available energy” )P,S
Last ED data: Aim-120B = Accelerator (booster time) = 3.0 sec, Sustainer = 5 sec . total motor time = 8 sec
Aim-120С-5 = Accelerator (booster time) = 3.0 sec, Sustainer = 6 sec . total motor time = 9 sec, aka (Longer engine section= +11 lb of fuel and + 1 sec sustainer )Average fuel consumption:
WPU-6/B : 102lb/8sec = 12 lbs per second
WPU-16/B: 113lb/9sec = 12 lbs per second
Another interesting data:
-
Another little work, a small modification of the missile engines (single-dual motors ) and thrust history according to the total impulse.
Based on the thrust history Aim-9
Sinle-mode thrust
R-73
3618.0 + 2 518.0 + 2 350.0 + 2 429.0 + 2 443.0 + 2 454.0 + 1 318.0 = 17 130 (Lbs)R-27R
5 850.0 + 4 880.0 + 5 000.0 + 5 100.0 + 5 150.0 + 5 200.0 + 2 300.0 + 1100 = 34 580 (Lbs)R-77
5 800.0 + 4 970.0 + 5 100.0 + 5 200.0 + 5 270.0 + 3 235.0 + 1 235.0 = 30 810 (lbs)Dual-mode thrust
R-27E
Lauch delay 0.5 sec + Accelerator (booster time) = 5.0 sec, Sustainer = 6 sec . total motor time = 11 sec
9500 + 7900 + 8000 + 8200 + 8100 + 7100 + 5200 + 3200 + 3300 + 3200 + 3300 + 3300 + 2200 = 72 500 (lbs)Aim120B/C-5
120B (WPU-6/B with 102lb fuel )Accelerator (booster time) = 3.0 sec, Sustainer = 5 sec . total motor time = 8 sec
5400.0 + 5000.0+5100.0+4100.0 + 2600.0 + 2200.0 + 2300.0 + 2400.0 + 1400.0 = 30 500 (Lbs)120С-5 (WPU-16/B with 113lb fuel) Accelerator (booster time) = 3.0 sec, Sustainer = 6 sec . total motor time = 9 sec
5400 + 5000 + 5100 + 3900 + 2600 + 2200 + 2200 + 2300 + 2300 + 2300 + 1200.0 = 34 500 (Lbs)Lauch Ranges, set around the tables on the previous page.
Acmi http://www.mediafire.com/?orjqashbhkduhoe
AA-10A/B dat updated.
Added AA-7R with 33890 lb. for single 5 sec boorst
AA-7T with 32920 lb. for single 5 sec boorst
R-60M with 5500 lb for single 2.9 sec boorst
+
New coefficients - Resistance increases as a function of angle of attack, and not vice versa as it is by default
Link
http://www.mediafire.com/?ttflrfssdbr11c1 -
I find it very disappointing that none of these suggestions are listed in the U4 changelog as having been implemented.
I can only HOPE that is corrected with 4.33 as it would be very hard to defend not doing so.
-
SpbGoro, what is this application show in your posts?
-
A.S, the link is in post 402 above: http://www.ecf.utoronto.ca/~pavacic/missiles/minizap.zip
-
Molni, could you please elaborate what is the current hitrate with your AGM tweaks? I am particularly interested in AGM-65 and 88. Thanks a lot.
-
Love all the collaboration here and hard work being put into updating the db.
Can’t think of a reason this stuff shouldn’t be updated for 4.33 official release! Here’s hoping!
main reason is that all those data are from real and missile FM code is buggged.
Puting real values in it would result in less accurate missile FM.
best method :
- fix code
- redo all missiles
or :
Introduce a new variable in missile dat file to use new code or old code in order to change the missile DB slowly