Flight manuals for Bms aircrafts
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Hi everybody, I may look ingenuos, but i 'd like to know if these manuals could be useful for bms modders.
http://www.flight-manuals-on-cd.com/ http://www.flight-manuals-on-cd.com/
What do you veterans think about?
It seems that you can find Mig-29 and Su-27 among others. It’s nothing useful for AFM coding but they could be contain interesting information.
I was about to purchase flanker’s one…… -
Or maybe you should take a look at this:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,47.15.html -
I don’t think those flight manuals will contain anything the developers have not already seen, but to the average BMS pilot I think the later ones would prove invaluable.
You can actually get PDFs of them online already, but as they are LimDis linking to them on these forums is verboten. Still, if you browse through falcon.blu3wolf.com you might find some interesting assorted files.
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Blu3wolf, i downloaded the su-27 manuals, they look like falcon4 manual! Someone should take a look if they want to mod su-27 hud, or radar, weapon system or whatever else.
There’s a complete engine start procedure, plus many charts about flight characteristics during turns, dive, loops.
And thanks for the link -
I see what you mean! Yes, for aircraft other than the F-16, these would be quite useful. I dont know if modelling different HUDs or Avionics systems is possible without a (possibly major) code change. Still, would be rather handy.
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I dont know if modelling different HUDs or Avionics systems is possible without a (possibly major) code change.
No, its not possible
F-16 avionics are everywhere in the code. You can do some minor adjusments here and there, but implementing a whole new avionics would be very time-consuming and bug-generating. Its not like the flight model, which was a modulus with clear inputs/outputs.
That being said, I would enjoy the shit out of some alternate avionics. Its the only major obstacle to get a new aircraft to the F-16 standart. In a few Falcon weeks, maybe…
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Well, I agree that it would be nice to do. I have to say that it would be nice to see F-16 systems working a lot better (looking at emergency procedures in particular…), perhaps making the avionics something you can configure would also make it easier to implement such features for the Viper as well?
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This russian manual is a huge source of information, really complete! im loving the start up procedure. Quite complicated though. Anyway I d love a realistic ramp start in an Su-27.
Lol, only some of the limitations from manualSECTION 2
OPERATING LIMITATIONS
Limitations
Reason
1. Maximum speed and flight Mach number:
of the V = 1400 km/h. Mode is unconfined on the time.
M = 2,35. With M = of 2,15 – 2,35 not more shch of minutes.2. Maximum operational overloading with the estimated gross weight of 21400 kgf:
PU max = 8,0 with [M]≤0,85
PU max = 6,5 with 0,85<[M]≤1,25
PU max = 7,0 with [M]>1,25
For the weights, which differ from estimated gross weight, the g-force is established from the detachment:
m•PU max = const = of 171000 kgf with [M]<0,85, but not are more than PU = 9,0
m•PU max = const = of 139000 kgf with 0,85<[M]≤1,25, but not are more than PU = 7,0
m•PU max = const = of 150000 kgf with [M]>1,25, but not are more than PU = 7,5
On the durability.
On the durability.
On the durability.3. Minimum negative g-force:
PU min = - 2,0 with [M]<0,85
PU min = - 1,0 with [M]>0,85
PU min = - 0,5 with V≤300 the km/h
On the durability.
On the durability.
To avoid entry into spin4. The minimum speed of the level flight of – 200 km/h.
At the height it is more than 6000 m of – 300 km/h.From the stability condition and controllability
5. Permissible angles of attack:
A) for the aircraft without the suspensions or with [UR]
M
0,5
0,6
0,7
0,8
0,9
1,0
2,0
[UAP]
24°
23°
22°
20°
19°
18°
8°B) for the aircraft with the bomber weapons of destruction and [NRS]:
WARNING. In it is takeoff – of the landing layout (by chassis released) of α[dop] = of 20°. With the contact on landing of α[dop] = of 16°.
On the stability and the controllability in [VPK].
On the stability and the controllability in [VPK].
On the clearance from the tail section to RUNWAY(S).
6. Maximum takeoff mass of 33000 kgf (with the installation of wheel KN -41 with the busbar of the model of 017[A] and wheel KT -156[d] with the busbar of the model of 2[A]).
Maximum takeoff mass of 28000 kgf (with the installation of wheel KN -27 with the busbar of the model of 016[A] and wheel KT -156[d] with the busbar of the model of 2[A]).
Estimated takeoff mass of 23250 kgf (2[khR]-27 + of 2[khR]73[E], estimated reserve 5090 kgf, complete set of fixed onboard equipment, ammunition load to [GSH]-301 of 150 shells).
Takeoff mass with the rockets of 2[khR]-27 + of 2[khR]73[E], from G = 9220 kgf (γ = 0,785) of – 27380 kg.
Maximum mass of the suspensions of rockets R -27 and R -73[e] of – 1950 kg.
On the durability of wheels and tires.
7. Maximum permissible ground speed of aircraft on the takeoff:
with the disengagement of the front wheel of – 320 km/h.
with the disengagement of the fundamental wheels of – 360 km/h.
On the durability of the tires of wheels.
8. Maximum landing mass 23000 kg.
Maximum landing mass of 21000 kgf, in this case the fuel remainder without the rockets of – 3560 kgf, with the rockets of 2[khR]-27 + of 2[khR]-73[E] of – 2840 kg.
Landings with masses of 21000 kgf, but not are more than 23000 kgf, they are allowed, as exclusion, but not more than 3% of the total number of landings.
On the durability of wheels and tires.
9. Takeoff and landing with the side component of wind of more than 15 m/s IS FORBIDDEN.Because of the difficulties in maintaining of direction on the takeoff and landing run.
10. The maximum speed of the reversals of the safety device of air ducts (ZU), and also flight with closed ZU is not more than 500 km/h.
On the durability of safety device.
11. Maximum permissible ground speed of aircraft on the landing:
with the contact by the front wheel of – 270 km/h.
with the contact by the fundamental wheels of – 280 km/h.
On the durability of the tires of wheels.
12. The maximum speed of the beginning of braking – 265 km/h.On the energy content of brakes.
13. The maximum speed of the release of the drag chute of – 300 km/h.
On the durability of parachute.
14. Release, retraction, and also wheels-down flight to execute at the velocity not more than 500 km/h.
On the durability of landing gear doors.
15. The maximum altitude of output and wheels-down flight of – is not more than 4000 m.Because of the possible rocking of aircraft in the longitudinal channel.
16. Flight with the deflected flaperons in the mode of flaps on the takeoff and the landing at the velocity not more than 600 km/h, PU not are more than 2,0.
On the durability of flaperons.
17. The production of speed brake and flight with the released speed brake at the velocity not more than 1000 km/h ([M]≤0,9), in this case on the V > 600 km/h slip not is more 2nd X of the diameters of ball.
On the durability of fins.
18. At the flight speeds it is more than 600 km/h with the pedal deflexion not to allow the overriding of spring stop.
On the durability of fins.19. The time of the continuous work of engines on the earth in the afterburning regimes is not more than 20 s.
Due to the temperature condition of engine components.
20. Maximum permissible temperature of gases behind the turbine:
on M of ≤ 1,9 in the maximum and afterburning combat modes of – of 750°~~;
on M > 1,9 in the maximum and afterburning combat modes of – of 765°~~;
in the combat training afterburning regime - 700°~~.
On the durability of the turbines of engine.
21. Is forbidden to create slip angles more it is 2nd X of the diameters of ball on M of ≥ 2,0.
To avoid the flutter of air ducts.
22. Flight with the near-zero and negative g-forces (PU = 0 ÷ - 2) is permitted:
in the afterburning regimes of the work of engines is not more e s. at the heights to 15000 m, not more than 8 s. at the heights more than 15000 m;
in the nonafterburning regimes of the work of engines is not more than 10 s. at the heights to 8000 m, not more than 15 s. at the heights more than 8000 m.
The repeated creation of the g-forces indicated is permitted not earlier than in 30 s. flight with PU of ≥ 1,0. Flights with the g-force PU = 2 ÷ - 2 to execute with the fuel remainder more than 1500 kg.
From the condition for the provision of supply of fuel to the engines.
23. The safe escape of aircraft by pilot is ensured:
on the takeoff and in the level flight with the velocities:
from 75 to 950 km/h. without the limitation on the height above area relief.in the level flight at the velocities:
to 1200 km/h at the heights is not less than 40 m above area relief;
to 1300 km/h at the heights is not less than 60 m above area relief.Under conditions descending aircraft at the heights, equal in magnitude rate of descent, multiplied by four.
Minimum safe height of ejection in the level flight with the roll angles:
γ = 90°, N min = of 150 m;
γ = 180°, N min = of 200 m.
Minimum safe height of ejection during the reduction with the roll angles:
γ = 90°, N min = 4•Vy+150 m;
γ = 180°, N min = 4•Vy+200 m.
The values indicated are given without taking into account time to decision making and preejection function.Depending on the type high-altitude of the equipment used:
in the crash helmet [ZSH] with the omitted light filter and the put on oxygen mask at the velocity not more than 1300 km/h;
in the crash helmet [ZSH] with the raised light filter and the put on oxygen mask at the velocity not more than 700 km/h.On the time, necessary for operating the parachute system.
On the time, necessary for operating the parachute system and on the effect of the air flow on the pilot.
On the time, necessary for operating the parachute system.
On the effect of the air flow on the pilot.
24. All flights, independent of velocities, to execute with the use of oxygen equipment, and the flights above the aqueous surface, furthermore, with the use of sea rescue equipment, in this case, depending on mission for the flight, to use following special equipment:
at the heights from 11000 to 20000 m of – [ZSH] with the oxygen mask (KM) and pressure suit (VKK);
at the heights is less than 11000 m of – [ZSH] with the oxygen mask, and with the flights with the g-forces it is more e un. of – VKK ([PKK]).WARNING. The maximum permissible retention time at height 11000 – 20000 m in the depressurised cabin is not more than 2 minutes.
For life support.
25. Takeoff, landing, flights with the g-forces and at the velocities more than 700 km/h to execute with the required locking of shoulder straps.26. The start of automatic modes SAU with M > 2,0 IS FORBIDDEN.
The rocking of aircraft is observed on M > 2,0.
27. With the failure of control system of the noses edges of α[dop] = of 10°.On stability and aircraft handling.
28. When unsymmetric suspension of two is present, and more than rockets (one of which R -27) on one wing of α[dop] = of 15° ([OPR] for this limitation it is not tuned).
On stability and aircraft handling.Just to give you the idea~~~~~~
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Or maybe you should take a look at this:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,47.15.htmlHey those could be needed for the FM guys… they had the Russian ones and here I see they are translated in English…
Nice find Wotan79
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I hope they could be useful.
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Well, I agree that it would be nice to do. I have to say that it would be nice to see F-16 systems working a lot better (looking at emergency procedures in particular…), perhaps making the avionics something you can configure would also make it easier to implement such features for the Viper as well?
Its an interesting idea, no doubt.
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After reading Mav-jp posts on the afm subject, i can tell how silly i was in believing that there were some new data to work on! :dhorse:
I think i 'll ask directly Anatoly Kvochur if he can obtain wind tunnel testing results of Flankers and Fulcrums!
Lol, i’d be capable of such a thing……
I just wonder if the FM developers are planning some other aircrafts flight model.
Is it really impossible to get relyable CL, CD, thrust values from such old airplanes? I can’t believe it, german also have mig-29, somebody here should be able to ask the right people or look for data in the right place! But maybe im wrong again -
well the thing is to have the data and to have them from reliable source like official manuals. Now with Russian ones the problem is translation.
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Don’t worry about sources (russian or export customers), they exists and are well known from FM dev…
Only missing thing is time required to compile all data and to produce a BMS FM from them… this requires weeks or months of computation.
But you should see something around the Su-27 family in 3-4 weeks -
OMG OMG… Ruskies are comming guys…
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After reading Mav-jp posts on the afm subject, i can tell how silly i was in believing that there were some new data to work on! :dhorse:
I think i 'll ask directly Anatoly Kvochur if he can obtain wind tunnel testing results of Flankers and Fulcrums!
Lol, i’d be capable of such a thing……
I just wonder if the FM developers are planning some other aircrafts flight model.
Is it really impossible to get relyable CL, CD, thrust values from such old airplanes? I can’t believe it, german also have mig-29, somebody here should be able to ask the right people or look for data in the right place! But maybe im wrong againThe thing is : coding a FM this precise for the F-16 was possible because with the NASA tests they did, and made public on a scientific paper, you have a shitload of data and coefficients you can use.
Not many aircraft have such extensive data available. Especially the Cold war era ones, go figure… and for new aircrafts, (Rafale, Eurofighter, F-22…), good luck !
Or : somebody here get some time on a wind tunnel, build a few models with various elevon and flaps positions, and test every AOA every 5° and at various speeds. This for every aircraft you want to build a AFM file.
And then, for fly by wire AC, you get your hands on the gains and rules of the FLCS.
Only then you will have something comparable in quality with the F-16 AFM.
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The thing is : coding a FM this precise for the F-16 was possible because with the NASA tests they did, and made public on a scientific paper, you have a shitload of data and coefficients you can use.
Not many aircraft have such extensive data available. Especially the Cold war era ones, go figure… and for new aircrafts, (Rafale, Eurofighter, F-22…), good luck !
Or : somebody here get some time on a wind tunnel, build a few models with various elevon and flaps positions, and test every AOA every 5° and at various speeds. This for every aircraft you want to build a AFM file.
And then, for fly by wire AC, you get your hands on the gains and rules of the FLCS.
Only then you will have something comparable in quality with the F-16 AFM.
And then with this data, I think for NFBW aircraft, people can add the FM themselves. For FBW AC though, it would still need to be coded… Whats the figure Mav-JP reckons? 6 years? to make the F-16s one?
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And then with this data, I think for NFBW aircraft, people can add the FM themselves. For FBW AC though, it would still need to be coded… Whats the figure Mav-JP reckons? 6 years? to make the F-16s one?
The whole thing, yes. Only the FLCS, I dont remember. With correct documentation, it is time-consuming but not impossible.
But the whole set of laws for the FLCS, and the aerodynamic data, is not easy to obtain. Only the F-16 was studied and results published, IIRC. So short of somebody finding public source data (read the FAQ, gents) for all this for a given AC, its AFM wont be at the same level as the F-16, sorry to say.
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Or maybe you should take a look at this:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,47.15.htmlDamn. I got excited to have found new material about the Su-27, which i didn´t had yet, but unfortunatly i have those for long time already.
I also do have the original manual and performance graphs included, but the first is really hard to understand as it is in russian language.
If someone finds wind-tunnel data for flankers let me know please -
Don’t worry about sources (russian or export customers), they exists and are well known from FM dev…
Only missing thing is time required to compile all data and to produce a BMS FM from them… this requires weeks or months of computation.
But you should see something around the Su-27 family in 3-4 weeks+1
Mig-29 !!! :mrgreen: