What's the point?
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@Red:
urban legend
Exaggeration-to-prove-a-point, RD. All my Cougars Iāve had to open up to fix something on the throttle. My TM WH just worked from day 1.
@A.S:
I believe so. You might want to try a picture uplaod-comparision search on google in order to find other sources.
I couldā¦. but all I could do is ogle for now. I donāt have the time/money/skills for something like this at the momentā¦
@A.S:
Sorry for asking so naively. What is meant by TQS? (Throttle Quadrant System) ā¦what switch(es) / sensor(s) / potentiometer in particular are(is) your problem?
Yep, some people refer to the throttle as TQS and the stick as SSCā¦. my issues have always been the rotaries and with one TQS, the ministick too.
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Hotas Cougar . . rotaries and the ministick use conventional oldschool contact- and resistance-area changing potentiometers. That stuff is āflintstones age oldā for 2017 standards, but most still use them, because cheap! and simple.
Those potis get due to contact (scratching and dust and humidity) dirty over time and change the electrical resistance (also known as āspiking outputā). There are way better solutions nowadays (no, dont ask what for now).
The micro-switch in picture (same ālow quality piecesā used in saitek btw.) uses a ācopper-domeāā¦ pressed down it creates an electrical contact, but over time those āpre-bent copper-platesā just get squeezed out.
You will notice that in loss of āclick soundā over time. Also better solutions available (no, dont ask what for now).
Even some desktop mouses use much better āmicro-switchesā with much longer endurance time and click-count.These are few of many things i meant in our previous ānot so well goingā thread. You buy a 300-400$ stickā¦ and get 5-10 cents electric parts built in them. Pffff
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A digital TQS Mark-II is what Ive been asking Thrustmaster about for a long time. Even asked the FCC developer about it. Id pay the same as a FCC/FSSB for it.
I like the idea of making the TQS rotataries smoother and more 12 or 16-bit with a Bodinar A-D interface board. The TUSBA-R2 and its software does about the same thing, i would think. Neither however, fix the analog wiper and axial damage that happens over time
Until then, i like Stevie (and Ice?) have been squirreling away a backup cache of fully functional Cougar sets. I know how to fix most of the common problems with the TQS, plus I have modded mine for use with BMS with hall sensor Z-axis and TUSBA-R2. I wont fly BMS with anything but a FCC SSC and modded TQS. Immersion and cool factor.
I dont fly virtual formation team levels anymore (did a long while back with VBA Rhino and VTB Panther when i had more time), but for the close formation we do in BMS combat flying and AAR, force mods do very well. Virtual form flying does require tricks (as AS suggested real ones do too); like neg trim and small amounts of flaps, tuned stick gain, and sometimes FM tweaks, hardware mods, etc.
I personally would like RD to go into detail on what he did using real Viper controls in his pit.
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Cougar has issue no question, but except for one, all issues have known solutions.
Itās up to the users to stop being bothered by the original issues.1. pots are wearing out because of friction and hall sensors donāt
tqs uses pots for RNG, ANT, throttle and MIX and MIY.My experience:
I had the first ever cougar produced. I presented it to the public and i kept it after the show. Itās still the one i use today in my pit.
itās been 17-18 years. Over these years i replaced the pot in the throttle once. Only once, after 6 years of loyal service.
after 10 years of service i switched to hall sensors.
thatās far from the every two weeks Ice mentionned, but i get your exageration argument Ice.reason why i hardly had to replace my pot: i always store my throttle full AB, end of the course and never idle. that was one main factor that made a throttle pot last longer or not.
i knew the reason why before, actually the creator of the FCC came up with the reason being electrical and the pot getting surges ramdomly only at the idle position if I remember right
problem, it was a hardly known facts, although advertised as often as possible.reason why i switched to hall sensors: because friction inevitably is a bad thing that will lead to problems.
the Hall sensor was the clear path to a placid flight simmer life. In my pit, the throttle is driven with a simple hall sensor, and itās been there since 2007-2008 something. never had to change it, reset it, recalbrate it.2. Cougar is 17 years old. in that time no one ever produced a replacement for the microstick. No one ever. and now A.S said there is ? ttttt
Lately i saw raptor saying he found a solution. He might certainly - heās not the kind of guy talking bs - but that wonāt change the fact that it was never made better by anyone for 17 yearsā¦
today parts are better than 17 years ago. Ultimately a solution will be available, but the number of cougar decrease, and it will be harder and hgarder to produce and distribute that solution. time wonāt help.3. Tusba is said to make the throttle better. I canāt tell as i never tried. but the questions i asked ppl who have and use tusba didnāt convinced me. I believe the added resolution is just a marketting argument. The only reason i would get a tusba is if i want to get the throttle standalone. it doesnāt fix any of the throttle issue, it doesnāt make it better (personal opinion)
I personally would like RD to go into detail on what he did using real Viper controls in his pit.
at this time:
stick is FCC3 into Martinās stickbase with a warthog grip. stick adaptor cast tilted foward
throttle is regular Cougar, hall sensor kit mounted and adapted to a real F-16 throttle rail. homemade cutoff lever adapter piece
Rudder is Realsimulator
All connected together to the Cougar stick, using cougar electronics and software (ccp & foxy)My only caveat is the radar cursors which i stopped using and programmed cursors instead on the shifted layer of the radioswitch.
Never was able to solve the microstick issue myself. been using that way for decadesAlthough i do have plans to try a real cursor sensor soon (as in 3-4 weeks) when i have enough mojo to work on the pit again
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Thanks RD for the reponses, i dont know where/when, but i was under the impression that you were using a real Viper TQS adapted to your 1:1 pit. I am very interested in your replacing the Cougarās analog pot rotaries with what, the real TQS HS ones? Please make a thread on that project.
While on the the topic of your pit, as a nerdy sparky engineer myself, id like to see the behinds scenes of your pit. That is to say, what the pcbs and cabling looks like. I sense youre a perfectionist (sorry bout the labelling), so im sure its neat and tidy (but never enough for you?). Its not braggadocious about sharing such a work of functional art. Please do.
As far as the TQS TUSBA-R2 goes, it brings up the resolution from 8 to 14 bits (12-bit for the R1). For most flying, having 256 versus 16,384 steps of resolution or fidelity isnt going to magically make a well throttle disciplined Ace pilot even better; but it can help a poor or average pilot who is less disciplined better with smoother controls. Having to pay for AVGAS in RL GA tends to make one more throttle disciplined, yes?
Plus the TUSBA-R2 and its software have filtering, dead zone, active zone area definition that assist with dealing with aging pots and cursors - more so than what the BMS Control GUI provides. It worth its price there alone IMHO.
I am using my second TQS with the HS (Miles) z-axis throttle pot, my own brake and rotary fixes, (my original TQS is in a box for history sakes, but is nearly mint condition). If not man handled, they will last a long time. Ive always used a dust cover which by its design, forced me to store the TQS handle in the forward position; so this along with your assertion on storing in AB may have some impact as to the longevity of my TQS. I believe the issue is not damaging the pot at either of its mechanical end points. This goes back to how kenetic vs surgical controller use (abuse?) affects hardware lifespan. This is yet another plus in the FCC camp for stick life imhoā¦ no moving parts to be banged around in adrenaline powered combat.
Speaking of impact, as one that has bought many a secondhand TQS online; i have found that most will have spikey or non functional rotaries. This is due in part because either the previous owner did not protect them from impact while in use or in improper shipping. The Range pot is the most susceptible device on the TQS to impact trauma (and the plastic lever too). Because of the axial rod on the two rotaries, any mild or greater force on the rotaryās knob will result in a pile-driver like damage on the potās wiper and external can. These can be either replaced or repaired if you know what youre doing. When I buy or ship a TQS, im very anal and specific on protecting the rotaries and blocking up the tqs handle to base. This is why TM shipped them so well in lots of styrofoam. I personally prefer buying from someone who has the orig packaging. It may cost another $50 in value and shipping, but well worth the hassle factor. Ive seen what happens when people are not aware of these vulnerabilities
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Thanks RD for the reponses, i dont know where/when, but i was under the impression that you were using a real Viper TQS adapted to your 1:1 pit
Although i do have plans to try a real cursor sensor soon (as in 3-4 weeks) when i have enough mojo to work on the pit again
youāre not mistaken, but itās not in yet
I sense youre a perfectionist (sorry bout the labelling)
Didnāt you say something about mutual respect?
Iām not and I can prove it ā¦ the under console wires and PCBs are a mess - Just barely enough so that maintenance isnāt too hard, but a mess anyway
Iām in awe at some pit on VP where everything is tidy and well laid out. Iām afraid itās not on mineā¦
but I started back in 2003. Back then it was viperpit stone age - Some wiring still reflect that time
A bit like a 1960 house electrical system -
OK, i thought thats what youāre using a real TQS vs injecting real hall devices into your TM TQS.
In my parlance, anyone that makes a 1:1 pit is much more of a perfectionist than Mr desktop like meself; by defacto.
A tad off OP topic,
RD, I enjoyed your ramp up video, but was wondering why you employed the full 3D pit rather than the HUD only mode?Also noticed how the TrackIR even with reflective spheres (note didnt say balls), loses track when looking at some of your switch panels. I just started using the wireless ED TrackerPro, this should be better at these extremes (but at the cost of zoom and lean). It is also EMI sensitive, so null calibration is critical.
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@A.S:
These are few of many things i meant in our previous ānot so well goingā thread. You buy a 300-400$ stickā¦ and get 5-10 cents electric parts built in them. Pffff
Believe me, buddy, I know all about this. My initial foray into simming was when I was back home in the Philippines and I was a poor college student. I had a Gravis joystick then a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and letās just say Iām surprised that the Logi stick is still being manufactured! Suffice to say I had a fair share of opening up the stick to clean out the pots This is one reason I love my WHā¦ never had to open it in 7 years!
As for my $300-400 stick, well, I bought the Cougar knowing the issues it came withā¦ and bought them with mods installed. At the price I paid for them, sometimes it felt like I paid for the mod and just happened to get a Cougar + installation for free
Until then, i like Stevie (and Ice?) have been squirreling away a backup cache of fully functional Cougar sets.
Used to, but needed the space plus didnāt like seeing them in storage so I felt better letting them go
@Red:
thatās far from the every two weeks Ice mentionned, but i get your exageration argument Ice.
Iām guessing youāre the exception rather than the norm RD. Or maybe the initial run of Cougars used better components. Even with HALL sensors, I still had issues with the rotaries and unfortunately, I wasnāt confident enough with them to be opening them and cleaning them out. I managed to get a set of replacements from TM for my first Cougar but when I get 3 out of 3ā¦.
I guess I wasnāt clear enough when I said āTQS innards,ā but I wasnāt referring to the axis pots at all. If someone could give details about being able to replace the rotaries, buttons, switches, and microstick on the Cougar with modern, more reliable stuff, then Iād probably consider a Cougar throttle again, but at this point, Iād rather spend my free time flying (or painting or playing boardgames) rather than doing electronics stuff.
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but at this point, Iād rather spend my free time flying (or painting or playing boardgames) rather than doing electronics stuff.
The very essence and differential between a TM Cougar Fan-addict and a BMS fanatic.
Pffftā¦ flying is optional, pulling apart electrics, soldering irons, multimeters, jewlers tools, oh the mystery in it all. Bringing things back to life, others give up on. Mods and tweaks. Its like Frankenstien nirvana. (Inject maniacal evil laughter).
Thats the point.
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Obviously, people have very different definitions of āfunāā¦. hence the market for stuff ranging from Ace Combat to Flaming Cliffs to PMDG-level aircraft to BMS and DCS A10C.
Electronics for me was always a means to an endā¦ -
Ya know what Ice, whilst im kinda joking aroundā¦ few guys that go all in on 1:1 cockpits are ever to be seen again in a frequent online squad life again. Ive known a half dozen, who rarely fly. RD is an exception and is probably around cause he started back in 2003.
Yeah āfunā is such a relative term. Sometimes the pursuit is greater than the completion.
As for me, electronics is my occupational lifeās bread
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Is that true? I kinda suspected, but never really knew for sure. Thatās one reason Iām hesitant to go down the rabbit holeā¦. the other reason is that electronics isnāt my strong point. I know enough to put batteries right-way in, and thatās usually enough to get me through life
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There are two types of pit builders:
- the ones who see their pit as a tool to enjoy their hobby. Most of these guys (but not all) donāt bother about the look of their pit (inside and out) itās like a hammer and a wrench to them.
- the ones who build nice and shiny objects but that will never fly any sim - unless for very limited test sessions and that woaw moment.
iām in the first category, but iām far from an exception, i have many friends who use their pit weekly.
I also have many friends who started early like me and who to this day canāt even land the F-16 in BMS
to the first category, the hobby is simulated flying
to the second category the hobby is building 1:1 scale models stuffed with electronicsMy pit building is the meeting of two hobbies: aircraft scale modelling and flight simulation. Electronics for me is not a hobby but a necessary pain
building a pit really impacts your flying, there is no question about that. you canāt build and fly (seriously) at the same time. you have to alternate building, flying, maintaining, flying, upgrading, flying etc etc. I flew with many pitbuilders and many to this day donāt fly anymore. But there are some squads exclusively made of pit builders. there is a great example in the french community.
IMHO on the other hand you canāt build a pit completely interfaced if you donāt understand how your sium work and how youāre supposed to interface your pit.Building a pit is the ultimate test of your motivation. many starts and quit and start again and quit again.
it should be thought of toroughly before starting. -
A tad off OP topic,
RD, I enjoyed your ramp up video, but was wondering why you employed the full 3D pit rather than the HUD only mode?Hud only doesnāt work with TIR. You canāt use HUD only flying MP. You canāt maintain formation = CQFD
there is on the other hand the empty pit option where all the cockpit goes black and void. I tried that one but that black hole kills my immersion, itās unatural when i look around the pit on the screen and gives me a weird feeling. I know lots of my fellow pitbuilders use it but it just doesnāt work for meAlso noticed how the TrackIR even with reflective spheres (note didnt say balls), loses track when looking at some of your switch panels. I just started using the wireless ED TrackerPro, this should be better at these extremes (but at the cost of zoom and lean). It is also EMI sensitive, so null calibration is critical.
when you lower your head, the TIR loses 1 of the sphere and stays stuck. Iām head down at that moment so i donāt look at my screen so it does not impact me (iām looking at the real switch so i wouldnāt care less about whatās displayed on my screen. when i raise my head to look outside again, the missing sphere is again detectable by the TIR and the view immediatelly adapt. I donāt even see the transition. for my eyes, itās like the TIR actually never dropped off.
so the issue you see on the video is not a reflective issue, itās one captor being invisible because the head is too much tilted. I guess that would happen with all kinds of tracking devices -
@Red:
I had the first ever cougar produced. I presented it to the public and i kept it after the show. Itās still the one i use today in my pit.
itās been 17-18 years. Over these years i replaced the pot in the throttle once. Only once, after 6 years of loyal service.
after 10 years of service i switched to hall sensors.IIRC, mine is serial number #401, purchased in 2001 400ā¬ ā¦ ( modded FSSB in 2008 ), ā¦ 16 years after, the throttle pot still working no problem. I never had to replace it.
The only part I had to replace was the Hat H1 because, before having the TrackIr, this hat was extensively used ā¦ Logged about 2500h of Falcon4, maybe one or two hundreds on other simulations, the Cougar is for me one of the best investment I ever made.@Red:
reason why i hardly had to replace my pot: i always store my throttle full AB, end of the course and never idle. that was one main factor that made a throttle pot last longer or not.
Same here.
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If tomorrow, TM releases a TQS MkII ā¦ I jump on it!
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I donāt think we are the exception. Because obviously only the guys having issues will talk about it. so we saw a lot of problem reports.
But nobody comes to the forum one day to state
āhey guys, great day iām having no issue at all and i enjoy the hobbyā
So one must reckon that for each reported issue, there are probably many users who donāt have issue at all
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The silent majority syndrome - count how many people have NOT posted here - QED !!
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Official surveys in the past was telling that for one reported complain there are 8 more ppl that just donāt report it at all, years later an update of a similar survey came to my attention raising that number to 16, this was years ago.
In my own personal survey found that those numbers are very close to reality.
I did my own survey cause I was like ok 10 complains are a non issueā¦ But reality was different when I had to ask ppl around if they had issues in person.Ī£ĻĪ¬Ī»ĪøĪ·ĪŗĪµ Ī±ĻĻ ĻĪæ MI 5 Ī¼ĪæĻ ĻĻĪ·ĻĪ¹Ī¼ĪæĻĪæĪ¹ĻĪ½ĻĪ±Ļ Tapatalk
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Maybe we can do some polls on the desire for a Viperās all digital TQS mkII, and what features we expect (requirements vs desirements). And then present the results to TM marketing with the numbers behind those who are willing to spend the same cost of a WHog throttle. Then make the case for what percent our sample would be overall based upon our poll and the serial numbers we documented or is currently for the WHog.
Off hand, Im thinking: (pulling these out of my azz, but just illustrating the sales picture)
- MP BMS folks are <25% of all BMS users
- BMS Forums comprise of <10% of all BMS users
- BMS users that use the TM gear are ~25%
- BMS users are <10% of all flight sim users
- there are over 30,000 Cougars out there
- there are over 30,000 WartHogs out there
- the potential customer base for a TQS mkII would be xyz
Then heres our polled and filtered feature list:
- all digital, no analog pots. Hall technology where possible.
- standalone (like the Whog, TUSBA builtin)
- slap ecm switch
- improved detents
- improved friction brake
- programmable switches and buttons on the base like a mini-WHog base
- improved base plate for stability and mounting (detachable for pits)
- metal over plastic parts (including the lever arm)
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- MP BMS folks are <25% of all BMS users
Hmmā¦
In Force on Force events (25 days non stop campaign server), we regularily had 350-450 people registered per event afairā¦ and eta 5154 members registered at the Falcon Online site.
Unlike other āeasy join - easy click and playā games on mutliplayer levelā¦ BMS requires a little more āpre-educationā and also good servers and a stable mp-code.
Therefore the MP presence is not as big as in other games, but i would not underestimate the total MP importance. In- our outside squadron events.I dont know, how many names are registered on BMS forums?