Something is very wrong with flak
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Today I made a test flight to see why flak was so accurate, even at high altitude and jinking, and made a worrying discovery.
I’m flying at about 30 thousand feet near an AAA battalion. I see the first gun flash, and about one second later, flak bursts near me.
That would mean that korean AAA guns have a muzzle velocity of about 30000 feet per second, or more than 9000 meters per second.
For comparison, the average speed of high velocity SABOT tank rounds is about 1700 meters per second, and orbital velocity in low-earth-orbit is about 7800 meters per second. Who knew North Korea had already figured out railgun technology :roll:I flew the same mission again, but this time at only ten thousand feet, and the result was the same. Gun flash, flak burst about one second later.:
I take that heavy AAA is coded to simply fire, then explode about one second later, and the accuracy simply uses RNG?
This would mean flak guns are way too deadly even at the end of their reach, and jinking basically has no effect. You just pray to RNGesus that the next shot isnt the one with your number on it.:(
I wonder why AAA guns don’t use ballistics calculation like other guns. Their rate of fire isn’t very high, certainly less than the gatling cannons on the Viper, even if only one in every 10 rounds are calculated.
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AAA is very deadly
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AAA is very deadly
Flak is very deadly against targets that don’t maneuver because they are on their bombing run, be them B-17s over Hamburg or B-52s over Hanoi. Against maneuvering targets, not so much.
Even during World War II, bomber formations could avoid radar directed flak fire when cruising at high altitude by changing altitude or heading.
The stated muzzle velocity of the KS-19 is around 1000 meters per second. Even if there wasn’t gravity or atmospheric drag, it would still take 9 seconds for the shell to reach the target.It’s clear that BMS doesn’t use ballistics for heavy AAA. It can be seen as a large volume barrage of one shell at a time. If so, what defence do we have?
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Please record a video to show this.
EDIT: Provide a repro case and detailed info:
Mission type (Cam or TE)
Theater
Units involved
Skill level of AAA
… etc … -
Flak is very deadly against targets that don’t maneuver because they are on their bombing run, be them B-17s over Hamburg or B-52s over Hanoi. Against maneuvering targets, not so much.
Even during World War II, bomber formations could avoid radar directed flak fire when cruising at high altitude by changing altitude or heading.
The stated muzzle velocity of the KS-19 is around 1000 meters per second. Even if there wasn’t gravity or atmospheric drag, it would still take 9 seconds for the shell to reach the target.It’s clear that BMS doesn’t use ballistics for heavy AAA. It can be seen as a large volume barrage of one shell at a time. If so, what defence do we have?
AAA is a real pain in the butt for me, I fear them more than I do fear the SAMS. They correct instantly their aim when you change altitude … a bi too effective I think, but from the war stories I have read, AAA always has been a nightmare.
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The stated muzzle velocity of the KS-19 is around 1000 meters per second
100mm AAA are set 2560ft/s (780m/s)
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Tomorrow I’ll try putting something together in WMM.
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Qualitatively I got this sensation too, that AA was hitting my new trajectory less than one TOF of the rounds.
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AAA is a real pain in the butt for me, I fear them more than I do fear the SAMS. They correct instantly their aim when you change altitude … a bi too effective I think, but from the war stories I have read, AAA always has been a nightmare.
Flying into an AAA barrage is pretty risky by all means. In BMS it feels just like that, except you only see the explosions closest to you, as if it was point fire…
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Here’s a recording of a few tests and tries at jinking. The first shots at 8k and 17k happen just under the label. I can’t see the third one.
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Here’s a recording of a few tests and tries at jinking. The first shots at 8k and 17k happen just under the label. I can’t see the third one.
If you post a link to a yt vid you shouldn’t have it private as noone else can watch it
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If you post a link to a yt vid you shouldn’t have it private as noone else can watch it
Whoopsies. I forgot to hit the “publish” button. It should work now
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Everything is probabilistic so to be relevant you need to perform hundreds of tests
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Everything is probabilistic so to be relevant you need to perform hundreds of tests
These are not all the tests I’ve done, only the ones I recorded and looked good enough to put on Youtube
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Everything is probabilistic
Well, that’s the problem right here. It’s not about whether AA shells are too fast, or whether they’re too or not deadly enough. It’s about them not actually having to fly from the gun to the target. The video clearly demonstrated the sim takes a shortcut here that is probably unnecessary.
Flak can be used to hit maneuvering targets if you have enough of it, but at high altitudes the shells take a while to get to target.
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Today I made a test flight to see why flak was so accurate, even at high altitude and jinking, and made a worrying discovery.
I’m flying at about 30 thousand feet near an AAA battalion. I see the first gun flash, and about one second later, flak bursts near me.
That would mean that korean AAA guns have a muzzle velocity of about 30000 feet per second, or more than 9000 meters per second.
For comparison, the average speed of high velocity SABOT tank rounds is about 1700 meters per second, and orbital velocity in low-earth-orbit is about 7800 meters per second. Who knew North Korea had already figured out railgun technology :roll:I flew the same mission again, but this time at only ten thousand feet, and the result was the same. Gun flash, flak burst about one second later.:
I take that heavy AAA is coded to simply fire, then explode about one second later, and the accuracy simply uses RNG?
This would mean flak guns are way too deadly even at the end of their reach, and jinking basically has no effect. You just pray to RNGesus that the next shot isnt the one with your number on it.:(
I wonder why AAA guns don’t use ballistics calculation like other guns. Their rate of fire isn’t very high, certainly less than the gatling cannons on the Viper, even if only one in every 10 rounds are calculated.
Read rp5
AFAIRNo need to waste CPU when you want a probabilistic result
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Well, that’s the problem right here. It’s not about whether AA shells are too fast, or whether they’re too or not deadly enough. It’s about them not actually having to fly from the gun to the target. The video clearly demonstrated the sim takes a shortcut here that is probably unnecessary.
Flak can be used to hit maneuvering targets if you have enough of it, but at high altitudes the shells take a while to get to target.
Read rp5
AFAIRNo need to waste cpu when you want a probabilistic result
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…I’m not sure I see anything particularly “wrong”. I was expecting you to be getting summarily and continuously blasted out of the sky - looks like heavy iron rain to me, but not “wrong”.
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Alright, time for some clarification.
I read in the Vault that one defence against flak was jinking. Which, yeah, in real life and in sims that implement it, works well against aimed flak. I just read the RP5 manual and indeed it says that jinking vertically is effective against flak. So I wanted to test it. Then I found that flak shells keep exploding very close to me no matter what I do.
So here’s the real question: is jinking actually taken into account by the sim’s code every time a flak shell is fired and the RNG dice is thrown? Or is the math completely probabilistic and independent of the player’s actions?
If the first is true, then jinking can be beneficial. If it is the second, then it’s simply better to not jink and save the speed to get out of the danger zone as quickly as possible.
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What I should think it would be that the gun batteries saturate a “box” in the sky to determine a given probability of hit within that box…in 3D. So, within that box in the sky your chances of a hit within that box would/should be evenly distributed throughout the box. The only way to effectively reduce the probability of hit would be to get out of the box (or maybe close to it’s edge?)…and hopefully be on your way before the units re-locate the box.