AGM-88 HARM range
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So i looked up in tactical reference the range of this weapon, and it has 25nm. Straight away i knew that couldnt be right as i saw it was 70nm in a game called command modern air/naval operations. So i decided to look it up on wikipedia, and on there it has 80 nm….so who is right? BMS…command…or wikipedia? another thing i wanted to bring up is that in the campaign when the ATO created SEAD strikes (with AGM-88s in loadout), it set the IP only about 8.5 nm away from the target (air defence battalion) but the max range is 25nm, surely that should be set to that max range to keep out the range of the SA-2s’ radar that its set to destroy? or is this just down to the player to alter the IP and that the AI ATO isnt too clever?
1. Desribing with a single value to range of any missile is impossbile.
2. Forget Tacref. It is outdated, it is just heritage of pre Internet age of Falcon 4.0 -
AGM-88 range is classified anyway, you will never get the exact answer.
My guess is its more like 60-70 NM than 25 though.
Considering only kinematics launching at 10 km it maybe possible but the big question is the time of power supply…
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What range are we talking about?
Maybe maximum kinetic range in optimal firing conditions is 80NM, and in normal firing conditions perhaps 40-60NM. BUT the HARM is completely reliant on the adversary’s operating RADAR to home in on. When firing at such long ranges, the flight time is well beyond a minute. Who knows what might happen in that time? It may be destroyed by another weapon, it may move, …
So, in summary: shooting from such longe distances is a great tactic to suppress (that’s why it’s called SEAD ) the enemy RADAR, forcing them to “blink” or keep the RADAR off entirely, but it’s a poor effort to actually hit something. This is one of the reasons why the publicly known hit ratio of HARMs is so low.
If your objective is to take the target out or at least degrade it physically, however, maximum effective range for the HARM could easily be 25NM, or less. Shorter distance = stronger signal to home in on, and less time for the enemy to react and shut down their RADAR. To my knowledge, the AGM-88 will guesstimate the target’s location based on the signal it received, so even if the enemy operators are able to power it down in time, the accuracy should be higher than long-range shots, especially with modern GPS-assisted HARMs.
Then there could also be an optimum range, minimum range, … so again, what range are we talking about, and to which range do the TacRef, wikipedia, CMANO etc. refer?
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Considering only kinematics launching at 10 km it maybe possible but the big question is the time of power supply…
I was talking all included, ToF too.
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without actually knowing anything, looking at photoes, I can only assume the HARM is similar in kinematic properties to the AIM-7 (late models)
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2. Forget Tacref. It is outdated, it is just heritage of pre Internet age of Falcon 4.0
is there two internets? I been using it since way before 98.
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I had to update my internet the other day, it took about an hour and I didn’t even have to reboot my PC, Isn’t XP a great OS.
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So i looked up in tactical reference the range of this weapon, and it has 25nm. Straight away i knew that couldnt be right as i saw it was 70nm in a game called command modern air/naval operations. So i decided to look it up on wikipedia, and on there it has 80 nm….so who is right? BMS…command…or wikipedia? another thing i wanted to bring up is that in the campaign when the ATO created SEAD strikes (with AGM-88s in loadout), it set the IP only about 8.5 nm away from the target (air defence battalion) but the max range is 25nm, surely that should be set to that max range to keep out the range of the SA-2s’ radar that its set to destroy? or is this just down to the player to alter the IP and that the AI ATO isnt too clever?
I would not assume C:MNO to be the acme of accuracy if I were you.
There are multiple versions of the HARM, and the newer ones are a lot more capable, particularly in range, than older ones.
Wikipedia will be talking about the range of the best publicly known variant. Command will either be an educated guess or OSINT of the specific variant. Falcon… who knows.
IRL the newer variants have long range, the ability to try to loiter after firing to look for targets, and probably wwre developed more recently than Falcon was.
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I’ve gotten ~72nm out of a HARM before. The limiting factor is the 200 second lifetime. I shoot at no more than 180 seconds (3:00) or less because life is unpredictable. Considering the errors in high altitude drag in BMS and a genuine best effort launch (max TAS, max alt) a 80nm delivery is very plausible.
IP-to-target A-ATO ranges are pretty short. It doesn’t matter for 2D combat because the dice roll is only resolved when the plane arrives or some fixed shoot range. If you just watch the mission from 2D, don’t worry about it. 3D it can matter. It depends on the waypoint tasks leading up. If it’s SEAD leading up to the attack they can shoot before they arrive. If human is leading then just tell wingmen to shoot radars you want to die. Stretching IP-to-target or per-aligning can ensure AI get a weapon off first pass for bombs.
Killing an SA-2 all else being equal I would walk up to the edge of the threat ring and fire at that range for the extra speed. Be careful about skimming the earth or buildings in the way as not all avenues are clear. Tacview is an invaluable tool for diagnosing issues.
Max range is best visualized with POS-EOM on a threat collocated steerpoint. When the time enroute readout is 200s (minus a 15 second buffer) it can be delivered properly and should arrive at best range. Speed, altitude, and a ~40 degree loft minimize the work the missile has to do.
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I’ve gotten ~72nm out of a HARM before. The limiting factor is the 200 second lifetime. I shoot at no more than 180 seconds (3:00) or less because life is unpredictable. Considering the errors in high altitude drag in BMS and a genuine best effort launch (max TAS, max alt) a 80nm delivery is very plausible.
80 NM in best condition is doable in 4.32. 200s ToF being the limiting factor is completely normal, the ToF (understand : battery time) is usually the limit for long range missiles. AA or AG.
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is there two internets? I been using it since way before 98.
Not you are the bar. Extrapolate from a single sample to infinite is very bad. I did not had home Internet connection until December of 2004…
So can you guess how many people had Internet access in 1998? Another factor the available info on Net in 1998… -
Not you are the bar. Extrapolate from a single sample to infinite is very bad. I did not had home Internet connection until December of 2004…
So can you guess how many people had Internet access in 1998? Another factor the available info on Net in 1998…12/2004? Wow… you are a late-comer! Have to LOL at your extrapolation comment though - you were perfectly happy to assume the net was virtually non-existent in 1998, but appear to base that assumption on your sole circumstance?! A spoonful of your own medicine is in order perhaps?
Relax Molni - no disrespect implied or intended
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I would not assume C:MNO to be the acme of accuracy if I were you.
There are multiple versions of the HARM, and the newer ones are a lot more capable, particularly in range, than older ones.
Wikipedia will be talking about the range of the best publicly known variant. Command will either be an educated guess or OSINT of the specific variant. Falcon… who knows.
IRL the newer variants have long range, the ability to try to loiter after firing to look for targets, and probably wwre developed more recently than Falcon was.
Command has a huge database with very detailed info, and it lists seven variants of the AGM-88…though all seven have min range of 1nm with max at 70nm.
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Command has a huge database with very detailed info, and it lists seven variants of the AGM-88…though all seven have min range of 1nm with max at 70nm.
So, you would espouse the database as being large because it is accurate in all respects?
I call your attention to the magic aircraft in it.
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So, you would espouse the database as being large because it is accurate in all respects?
I call your attention to the magic aircraft in it.
Not saying its accurate due to its size but anyway thats regardless…the original point was finding out what the correct max range of the weapon is and a few people have come back with interesting views on it. It does seem that Falcon simulates the weapon being capable of firing out to, what someone said- 72nm. All depends on firing conditions such as altitude, guess the 25nm it has in tacref is a max range guide to firing a relatively low altitude. I dont know, people on here knoe a lot more than me.
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I don’t know exactly where they got that range figure but you can think of an M16 rifle has a max range of 3000+ meters but a maximum practical range of like 400m. For example I don’t (and I should learn since I’m documenting this stuff) how far the AI tend to shoot the thing.
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I don’t know exactly where they got that range figure but you can think of an M16 rifle has a max range of 3000+ meters but a maximum practical range of like 400m. For example I don’t (and I should learn since I’m documenting this stuff) how far the AI tend to shoot the thing.
The difference between a 5.56mm round fired from an M16 though is it doesnt have its own propulsion like an AGM-88 has. Once an AGM-88 runs out of fuel it falls to the ground, fuel is the main factor for a missiles’ range.
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Once an AGM-88 runs out of fuel it falls to the ground, fuel is the main factor for a missiles’ range.
Nope… (sigh).
Depends on the missile, but typically, for a short range missile, you have 2-5s of propulsion for a 30+ s battery time, ie a 30+ s of “useable” time. There are exception, some missiles do rely on propulsion to get power supply and/or guidance, but the main rules is usually : “useable flight time” = “engine duration” x 10.