Pulling 4G in two seconds
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Don’t think there is much emphasis on lofting IAMs in real life. Loft/toss seems more of a Cold War low level kind of thing, not a medium level tactic.
Well, probably true for most of today’s current low threat operations. Do remember though that lofting an IAM will bring a significant range increase while still retaining precision even if the weather is bad. Also, they are significantly cheaper than something like a JASSM or Storm Shadow. It would be a very valid release profile against any kind of properly defended (near-peer) target. Remember that the F-16 HUD cues for IAMs include a recommended loft angle.
Specifically in BMS, a low level ingress with a lofted JDAM is a great option for targets defended by SA-10. Is it a real tactic - maybe, but I know RAF trains for both high and low level loft with Paveway IV.
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Keep in mind that being close enough to the edge of the LAR when firing to require a loft does mean your are not retaining very much precision.
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Keep in mind that being close enough to the edge of the LAR when firing to require a loft does mean your are not retaining very much precision.
Well I think you’d be OK. You’d pre-plan to be within the LAR upon release. The LAR is the LAR, AFAIK precision isn’t depended upon which ‘end’ of the LAR you use. As long as you meet the envelope, the weapon is smart & maneuverable enough to hit.
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JDAM manuals go out of their way to suggest that platform lofting is unnecessary and even possibly counter-productive. JDAM software understands the bomb as a lifting body and can sail much farther than a ballistic bomb already. Of course physically a loft will extend a JDAM so long as the software recognizes and can adapt to that situation it should help. LAR prediction is a function of the airplane software (except JIZ word is generated from JSOW, but the LAR displayed is still F-16) and possibly suspect in odd situations (like low level loft).
MIL power
Yes, MIL not MAXAB.
It should be start pulling on the flashing circle
Yes, my mistake. Solid circle appears at 2 seconds prior to maximum range loft. Circle flashes at max range loft and continues for 2 seconds. Entered release angle is separate from the solid/flashing circle which only deals with max range (aka 45 deg). The cues for entered rel angle (if less than 45) are the solution cue at FPM and the TTG timer.
But the doc we’re reading, the latest F-16, and BMS are 3 different animals so let’s talk BMS.
If I set REL ANG 1° then I get the following behavior:
Solution cue appears at 10 TTG pull up
0:01 TTG pullup solid circle appears
0:00 TTG pull circle flashes, TTG resets to 00:12, solution cue resets
0:00 TTG solution cue meets FPM again, range caret is at the top of “DLZ”A 1° release angle is not equivalent to 12 whole seconds of level flight. It just isn’t. If I try to do my best loft maneuver at the honest to goodness 0:00 mark I get an actual loft of 5-10°. If I try 2° I get 10°. 5° resulted in 22°. 10° resulted in passing 45° with no release. The lesson is if you try a 45 degree loft by the numbers and pull when it says pull you’ll miss. In BMS there is no “max loft” anything. All the cues relate to the REL ANG setting and not to Max 45 (if different) except maybe the reverse flashing/solid circle you get when egressing (happens at 3-6nm depending on jet airspeed and altitude).
I found at KOTAR “GP Bombs” TE that 7,500’ MSL 475KCAS that the level release time displayed immediately after the TTG reset was 26-27 seconds. I knock 8 (ok 8-12) seconds off that (the same 8 second delay I found in the 1° REL ANG case) I find that it corresponds nicely to max toss. If I pull up at 16TTG I’m about 50/50 whether I blow past release dry or not.
I found that releases beyond 30 degrees but less than 45 are a slim margin. You don’t gain a lot of throw distance in that area. Releasing at 40 while still rating the nose would be a “you got lucky this time” situation.
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Well, probably true for most of today’s current low threat operations. Do remember though that lofting an IAM will bring a significant range increase while still retaining precision even if the weather is bad. Also, they are significantly cheaper than something like a JASSM or Storm Shadow. It would be a very valid release profile against any kind of properly defended (near-peer) target. Remember that the F-16 HUD cues for IAMs include a recommended loft angle.
Specifically in BMS, a low level ingress with a lofted JDAM is a great option for targets defended by SA-10. Is it a real tactic - maybe, but I know RAF trains for both high and low level loft with Paveway IV.
Even for higher threat operations low level is really a thing of the past. There’s too much stuff on the ground to shoot at you. Just look at how the Tornadoes fared in Desert Storm.
If you’re going to take down double digit SAMs, I’d expect Raptors, (F-35s), Growlers, JASSMs, MALDs and SDBs etc. Not Vipers lofting JDAMs from low level.
Also if you want a JDAM to fly far I’d imagine you are better off coming in at high altitude and high speed to give it some legs as opposed to lofting from low level.
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Thanks for all the responses everyone, and all the feedback, its really appreciated! Just got home from work so I’ll be messing around with it some more tonight, but so far take home is…
1. Lofting is best performed at medium altitudes 450-500 knots.
2. When the lofting cue flashes, or when the first ttg hits zero, burners and pull.
3. solution cue will pass through fpm and bomb will separate when you are still pulling and hit the release angle set in sms.I hope this sums it up, like I said I’m going to mess around with it some more, thanks again for all the help everyone!
Adam
Jet Lag -
Thats the way it should work. As Frederf points out, thats not the way it does work. The best guideline to get a successful loft is to wait until inside the indicated max range significantly.
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Got it Blu, thanks for the clarification, and after reading over Frederf’s post a couple more times, I see how what should happen isn’t really what is happening in BMS. So just disregard the flashing circle, once the caret is at the top of the DLZ, pull my climb to the solution cue and the bombs should separate, correct?
Adam
Jet Lag -
Top of the DLZ is the level release so if you wait that long there’s no loft at all. I think in most situations if you are level and the TTG for release is 10-15 seconds away you should be in loft range. It should be several seconds after the circle flashes.
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Got it Frederf, thanks for all the help everyone!
Adam
Jet Lag -
Taka a look to this video 4:00-5:00 minutes
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Saw an interesting bms youtube video about lofting gps bombs from behind a mountain.
Bomb crosses the ridge and falls on its coordinates, viper is never exposed to radiation. -
Even for higher threat operations low level is really a thing of the past. There’s too much stuff on the ground to shoot at you. Just look at how the Tornadoes fared in Desert Storm.
If you’re going to take down double digit SAMs, I’d expect Raptors, (F-35s), Growlers, JASSMs, MALDs and SDBs etc. Not Vipers lofting JDAMs from low level.
Also if you want a JDAM to fly far I’d imagine you are better off coming in at high altitude and high speed to give it some legs as opposed to lofting from low level.
Why do people point to British Tornado losses during Op Granby (Desert Storm for you colonials) as to why low level attacks don’t work.
Of the 6 operational Tornado losses 4 were during low level attack. The first 2 were on the first night of operations with one a/c being hit by AAA while evading SAM and the second by a Radar guided SAM systems, both on egress after successful attacks. The next lost was also a Radar SAM during the Climb Phase of a Loft attack (the only attack that was prevented by air defences). The last was from unknown sources - the a/c impacted the ground on egress from the target. It was possibly shot down by a Mig 29 (the Tornado claimed a by the Iraqis was the one lost in the loft attack 3 days earlier). The other 2 loses were at altitude.
It should be noted the all 6 were lost while attacking Iraqi airfields (with all the concentration of air defences that go with it) - a capability that the other alliance forces lacked. During the first days of Op Granby Iraqi airfields was all the Tornados were attacking. In total the British lost 9 Tornados and a Jaguar - but only the above 6 were due to Iraqi air defences the others being training accidents. The RAF deployed about 80 combat a/c and flew 2500 ground attack sorties.
We never hear about the other 40 odd allied a/c lost during Desert Storm!!!
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Even for higher threat operations low level is really a thing of the past. There’s too much stuff on the ground to shoot at you. Just look at how the Tornadoes fared in Desert Storm.
If you’re going to take down double digit SAMs, I’d expect Raptors, (F-35s), Growlers, JASSMs, MALDs and SDBs etc. Not Vipers lofting JDAMs from low level.
Also if you want a JDAM to fly far I’d imagine you are better off coming in at high altitude and high speed to give it some legs as opposed to lofting from low level.
Yeah I totally agree. This is what we’d see in any future conflict. The beauty of BMS is that it’s a sim and we can experiment. Sometimes, in BMS, a low level approach works - otherwise you would face a barrage of PRC SA-10s… Also, low level is more fun.
Also, we don’t have a sophisticated array of coordinated JASSM, MALD’s, and stand off jamming available in sim. This is one to try in Matrix’s CMANO, it works pretty well, as you’re aware.
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At the cost of aircraft in general being low fidelity.
Low level only works in BMS because you assume that there is not point defenses like SA-15s.
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Why do people point to British Tornado losses during Op Granby (Desert Storm for you colonials) as to why low level attacks don’t work.
Of the 6 operational Tornado losses 4 were during low level attack. The first 2 were on the first night of operations with one a/c being hit by AAA while evading SAM and the second by a Radar guided SAM systems, both on egress after successful attacks. The next lost was also a Radar SAM during the Climb Phase of a Loft attack (the only attack that was prevented by air defences). The last was from unknown sources - the a/c impacted the ground on egress from the target. It was possibly shot down by a Mig 29 (the Tornado claimed a by the Iraqis was the one lost in the loft attack 3 days earlier). The other 2 loses were at altitude.
It should be noted the all 6 were lost while attacking Iraqi airfields (with all the concentration of air defences that go with it) - a capability that the other alliance forces lacked. During the first days of Op Granby Iraqi airfields was all the Tornados were attacking. In total the British lost 9 Tornados and a Jaguar - but only the above 6 were due to Iraqi air defences the others being training accidents. The RAF deployed about 80 combat a/c and flew 2500 ground attack sorties.
We never hear about the other 40 odd allied a/c lost during Desert Storm!!!
Have to admit that it was done more as a “hearsay” argument naming the Tornadoes, without doing proper research into the circumstances. Apologies for that Tiffy!
Nevertheless I stand by my reasoning that low level is probably not the way to go IRL.
But yeah in Falcon you don’t have all those goodies and of course fun matters too