Collimated HUD in stereoscopic 3D - is it possible?
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Hi guys.
(copied from http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=96477)
I use NVidia 3d vision - anaglyph image. It works very well in BMS. It gives superb feeling. I can’t anymore play without it.
But can anyone tell if it is possible to make HUD collimated much more forward so it appears near pseudo infinity: It could be sized up and simultaneously proportionally moved forward, so that its size remains the same as seen by the pilot, altough a HUD visualization plane is moved.
In other words can it be possible in BMS to do sth like here:At the moment HUD is collimated outside a canopy, but not far enough. Still It is awesome that 3D works even if it is not supported.
If I started, what to start from?
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…not without spending a LOT of money (or space…300 feet?..) that none of us have.
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Maybe with some really fancy assembly hacks and direct x proxy, or maybe a cockpit model edit, but i dont know, im learning directx, we’ll see in 3 months before the Rift launches.
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…not without spending a LOT of money (or space…300 feet?..) that none of us have.
What do you need the space or money for? This just requires some changes to the BMS model.
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What do you need the space or money for? This just requires some changes to the BMS model.
It requires a lot more than just that - mostly re: the screen and optics used to project a collimated display (pretty certain that the projection screen has to be equidistant from the projector(s) at all points, so you HAVE to have a dome, or semi-dome). Commercial airliner trainers (with full motion bases) are the only trainers I know of professionally that have 2D collimated OTW displays - and we’re talking millions of $$$ for that…and you want to ad 3D? Which I’m pretty sure isn’t technically even possible because of the optics of how a 3D generated projection works - collimating the display would physically prohibit a 3D projection…so…fuggeddaboudit.
But here’s someone that’s working on such…for 2D, like the big boys -
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It requires a lot more than just that - mostly re: the screen and optics used to project a collimated display (pretty certain that the projection screen has to be equidistant from the projector(s) at all points, so you HAVE to have a dome, or semi-dome). Commercial airliner trainers (with full motion bases) are the only trainers I know of professionally that have 2D collimated OTW displays - and we’re talking millions of $$$ for that…and you want to ad 3D? Which I’m pretty sure isn’t technically even possible because of the optics of how a 3D generated projection works - collimating the display would physically prohibit a 3D projection…so…fuggeddaboudit.
But here’s someone that’s working on such…for 2D, like the big boys -
I don’t get it. If the bms f-16 hud was rendered far away and bigger in size, it will look the same for people using regular monitors vs people using 3d glasses or virtual reality, like in the forum posts. Are you talking about building a working hud, and making it render with bms while also using 3d glasses? Then that would be hard but isn’t what was asked I think.
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I don’t get it. If the bms f-16 hud was rendered far away and bigger in size, it will look the same for people using regular monitors vs people using 3d glasses or virtual reality, like in the forum posts. Are you talking about building a working hud, and making it render with bms while also using 3d glasses? Then that would be hard but isn’t what was asked I think.
No - we’re talking about the whole of the OTW display. The whole point of using a collimated display for OTW is so that two people sitting side by side see the same thing in and with the same/proper angular perspective just as they would on an actual flight deck - this is why they are so prevalent on commercial airliner sims and not on fighter or helo trainers where the crew are both sitting on centerline. If you’ve ever been flying for real and tried to land or even just fly an aircraft from the opposite seat you’d been primarily trained in…well, you’ll find it takes some non-trivial training.
This is way different from a simple HUD, where one crewman is looking at/though a single 2D display focused at infinity - a simple “rifle scope”, if you will. Or even the aft seat crewman…since both are sitting on-center, there is no (or very little) angular disparity between the two sets of eyes.
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If you look at OPs request, collimation was the wrong term. He wants the HUD displayed at infinity, so stereoscopic glasses work.
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You don’t even need stereoscopic glasses for that - you just need another projector that you can focus. A pico-projector will work, and is what I plan to use to make a working HUD for my own pit.
Here is a must read - IMO- on the subject of HUDs:
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Thats only if you have a cockpit. He has nVidia 3D, and thus has the glasses already. No space or loads of cash required.
All thats needed is for the HUD plane to be moved in the sim, so that its correctly displayed by the glasses.
For the hardware he has, he needs a software fix.
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Correct - and I am going to have a cockpit.
But more to the point, collimating the display even for me is over the top, I think - what I’m really going to do is focus the secondary HUD projection onto the projection surface through the reflector (but dim enough so that I don’t see it on the OTW screen) which will not be at “infinity” in reality. But if/when I do move my head out of the reflector box I’ll still short myself the view of the display, which is the point. I suppose that what I will lose is that the projection on the reflector will pick up an angular distortion. But I’ll consider that once I actually can climb into my pit and see it. By then it will be a simple (but expensive…) thing to add a collimating lens…which I’ve already discussed making with my optometrist.
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Thats only if you have a cockpit. He has nVidia 3D, and thus has the glasses already. No space or loads of cash required.
All thats needed is for the HUD plane to be moved in the sim, so that its correctly displayed by the glasses.
For the hardware he has, he needs a software fix.
Yeah this, which as I understand it isn’t actually an easy fix. But with all the interest in VR, it would be nice to find a way. I did honestly have a lot of fun with my ED shutter glasses back in the day but stopped using them basically due to this problem. In another thread, Demo talked about using them with good success if didn’t turn up the 3D too high:
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?25343-BMS-3D-Mode&highlight=glasses -
Again, OP isnt talking about collimation, just the HUD displayed in the in game cockpit.
Collimating the OTW display for your projection I suspect will be difficult if not impossible. Its doable with airline simulators I understand because of the limited FoV. I cant see it being so easy for 270 degrees in your space setup.
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Yeah this, which as I understand it isn’t actually an easy fix. But with all the interest in VR, it would be nice to find a way. I did honestly have a lot of fun with my ED shutter glasses back in the day but stopped using them basically due to this problem. In another thread, Demo talked about using them with good success if didn’t turn up the 3D too high:
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?25343-BMS-3D-Mode&highlight=glassesIts not an easy fix from the users point of view. For the developers though it should not be overly difficult. The biggest issue would likely be devs not having the hardware to test with.
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…going back and reading the original post, what he needs to do to get what he wants is to be able to inject a 2D image for the HUD symbology into the 3D world using a virtual display located at a stabilized location in front of the HUD glass…that he can choose. I can see a way to do this in software, and using MFDE…and a LOT of coding that I don’t know how to do.
It could be done, but this is yet another reason I’m not really a fan of 3D anything…
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Given that MFDE works the other way around (stuff from BMS rather than to it) Im not sure how it would help? BMS doesnt have an API for just adding new surfaces on the fly.
To the best of my knowledge what he wants requires developer changes.
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Again, OP isnt talking about collimation, just the HUD displayed in the in game cockpit.
Collimating the OTW display for your projection I suspect will be difficult if not impossible. Its doable with airline simulators I understand because of the limited FoV. I cant see it being so easy for 270 degrees in your space setup.
I wouldn’t need to collimate the OTW - just the projection through the HUD, the way a real HUD works. Point being to resolve angular viewing distortion as your head moves within the view box. As I said, I won’t know if I really want or require that until I actually look at what I’ve built.
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Given that MFDE works the other way around (stuff from BMS rather than to it) Im not sure how it would help? BMS doesnt have an API for just adding new surfaces on the fly.
To the best of my knowledge what he wants requires developer changes.
…that’s my point.
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…that’s my point.
Ah. It seemed like your post was suggesting a modder could add the functionality to BMS instead.
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Ah. It seemed like your post was suggesting a modder could add the functionality to BMS instead.
Nope…I was just augmenting the conceptualization…my inner engineer was showing…my bad.