Why Virtual Reality for BMS would improve the experience by order of magnitudes.
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Thanks for the update Rabbit!
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If using VR interferes with your sim cockpit, then just don’t enable the VR features? That really isn’t a valid reason to never introduce VR, especially considering those with external mfd’s etc are probably the minority of BMS users. Don’t like it? Cool, don’t use it. There are lots of other people who would enjoy the immersion. That being said I have no clue of the complexities of integrating all the logistics for VR, so there could be other much larger road blocks for implementation.
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Hey!
Just wanted to share a nice read on the topic for all who might be interested.
http://www.mudspike.com/oculus-rift-cv1-first-impressions-with-dcs/
Greets!
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Roie Gat has a good YouTube channel with the CK1, he is also on the Gazelle team:
https://m.youtube.com/user/TheOtherWhiteMeat22? -
A long read to get to the core info/op’s question, that boils down to a debate between peps that wants to switch switches and peps that want the most out of the motion picture.
I think its healthy with a good debate, but just protecting your own investment isnt that fruitful. VR can be outstanding for those who wants it. Peps with realsize cockpits with every switch in, is fortunate and rightfully proud. Lets focus on a solution on that specific VR -Falcon Bms problem here. Multimonitor and mfd’s has a trillion of space for info on this forum.
Peace and progress!
/Jaws
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Reading these comments on this and other reviews makes me wonder if it is time to revisit 3d glasses for sims, especially for those of us with multiple monitors. Wide screen 3D with headtracking is what knocks people’s socks off in flight/racing sims, and a lot of us have 2/3 of that. Yes there is the whole room aspect of the Vive, but that isn’t what we need in sims (yes I know there are a few walk around going on in DCS).
On my personal VR front, I have a Deepoon E2 headset coming this week, which is suppose to be DK2 level resolution that only has and pitch headtracking. Also it at least had support for most of the OR games through SDK 1.3, but not sure now with all the lock down Facebook seems to be doing with the Rift. It at $220 shipped with a coupon code, I figured I can get that value of enjoyment out of it in 360° videos alone.
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Hey guys,
just had to ressurect this thread because a few days ago I had my first minutes in the DCS P51 Mustang with the Oculus Rift.
Just wanted to say to everyone who may think VR support is not worth the effort: Please, try it first. If you tried it and stay with that opinion, its yours. But for many this will be a game changer.
I mean, I am into flightsims for so many years. And I knew what was coming. The Mustang.
But when I entered 3D it was just “Whooooooooo hoooooooooooo - W-T-F??!?!”
I mean there I was… sitting inside that damn thing. Looking out seeing that wing… so f**in big?!
Rolling that thing you have to take care not to get sick. Amazing.For me it really was a WOW effect even after so many years of simming. Forget 3D effects in cinema. Forget what you see on videos or panorama photos. You need to try it.
This has to be the closest you can get to flying a real airplane.
And for those 600 to 700 bucks… for me they already paid of in those first few minutes. I really had an experience, no other simulation I tried came even close to. Without even leaving my house. LOL.
Using the mouse inside the cockpit was not as easy as on a monitor but doable. Just honoring the experience here, not going into the pro and cons for tactical combat.
Just wanted to share!
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amazing!! Thank you for the report, I’ll be buying the rift as soon as I can convince my wife that sitting in front of a monitor with 3D glasses is the “new black”:D. Seriously though, I’m really looking forward to the future for flight simming. The possibilities with 3D are just too great to ignore them and it’s good to see that flightsim developers are trying to integrate this new technology as soon as possible. Great times are ahead!
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amazing!! Thank you for the report, I’ll be buying the rift as soon as I can convince my wife that sitting in front of a monitor with 3D glasses is the “new black”:D. Seriously though, I’m really looking forward to the future for flight simming. The possibilities with 3D are just too great to ignore them and it’s good to see that flightsim developers are trying to integrate this new technology as soon as possible. Great times are ahead!
You may consider the Vive instead. Valve has a better history than “Facebook,” and isn’t making their crap contain VR DRM. I expect support for the Rift to die quite quickly.
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You may consider the Vive instead. Valve has a better history than “Facebook,” and isn’t making their crap contain VR DRM. I expect support for the Rift to die quite quickly.
The DRM has been removed by Oculus. Was just being circumvented anyway.
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The hindrance of VR to those that use flight sims as a means to exact realistic pilot lives such as checklists etc. and to put out flawless performances in the campaign of their choice is true, though those kind of vp’s are very vocal in these forums and have strong views on how to fly or how a sim should be used, they are not part of the only way to approach a flight sim and neither should they be. Developers know this and integrate it into their sims for the immersion factor which like it or not has always been a major player in simulation.
A lot just like to fly the aircraft and manage systems to their liking without the need for job critical proficiency. The feeling of flight far outweighs some fantasy dc or virtual squadron involvement. Call this gaming but this can be apportioned to playing at virtual squadrons or dc obsession, non of it is real and only done for entertainment value a la gaming.
The VR experience in flight cannot be matched by anything, period, nothing comes close. For those many vp’s that see the immersion of flying as the primary part of a sim VR becomes the holy grail, not the need to run through check lists or flick switches, while this forum has a strong vibe of one ring to rule them all this is not a majority opinion in flight simming and enjoying the wonderful genre we embrace, each to their own and with VR it is only going to grow.
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…Except checklists can be rendered to kneeboards as fsx does, and you can drag them around the 3d space via hmcs-like controls.
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Hey guys,
just had to ressurect this thread because a few days ago I had my first minutes in the DCS P51 Mustang with the Oculus Rift.
Just wanted to say to everyone who may think VR support is not worth the effort: Please, try it first. If you tried it and stay with that opinion, its yours. But for many this will be a game changer.
I mean, I am into flightsims for so many years. And I knew what was coming. The Mustang.
But when I entered 3D it was just “Whooooooooo hoooooooooooo - W-T-F??!?!”
I mean there I was… sitting inside that damn thing. Looking out seeing that wing… so f**in big?!
Rolling that thing you have to take care not to get sick. Amazing.For me it really was a WOW effect even after so many years of simming. Forget 3D effects in cinema. Forget what you see on videos or panorama photos. You need to try it.
This has to be the closest you can get to flying a real airplane.
And for those 600 to 700 bucks… for me they already paid of in those first few minutes. I really had an experience, no other simulation I tried came even close to. Without even leaving my house. LOL.
Using the mouse inside the cockpit was not as easy as on a monitor but doable. Just honoring the experience here, not going into the pro and cons for tactical combat.
Just wanted to share!
Thanks for sharing! Indeed, I will not and cannot deny what VR brings to the table, even in it’s current form.
In fact, I am “this close” to buying a Vive to use with Elite Dangerous but just wondering if I’m better off waiting for the “2nd gen” VR stuff.
As I said before, if all you want is to fly, enjoy the sights, not bother with switches or lists or the like –- as you do in Elite Dangerous or flying old-era aircraft or sight-seeing in FSX — then VR is a no-brainer. -
Cur gen vs next gen is a good question.
With current gen VR HMD the res is still not high enough for hard core simming (you can’t clearly read cockpit instruments for example). And the Hardware struggle is very real. You system should be able to achieve at least 45fps at all times at a screen resolution of 2160*1200 (render frame for the vive/rift). GTX970 struggles at these resolutions, 1080 probably behaves better. But still to good enoght for a demanding 3D env.Next gen BMS will probably be double the res @ 120 fps (which will make 40fps the minimum number)
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Yeah, resolution is an issue. Albeit overall image quality is suprisingly good. After coming from the VFX-1 in the 90ies and after having read a lot about angular resolution and having read about how bad it still is, it exceeded my expectations!
As for the cockpit lables in DCS… yeah thats not good yet. But I am wondering if it is really the display resolution or some in-game quality settings or if something could theortically be done on the software side to make the lables more readable.FPS is another issue and with increasing resolution will become even more serious. Especially with Falcon the CPU might become a bottleneck as well.
Oculus recommends 90 FPS. But with my i7-3770+GTX 970 all experiences I tried so far run smooth without issues (probably it drops below that, but it is not noticable). With DCS being the only thing that is on the edge. I reduced some details in the setup here.
So yes. Serious simming in VR is going to be very hardware demanding, even more when the per-eye resolution increases in the next generation of devices. But maybe the hardware support from the GFX cards catches up here - rendering the left / right frames in parallel (multi-gpu or something).Another thing. The upcoming Touch controllers support (limited) finger tracking. That means for example you can straight out your (virtual) index finger. So you can for instance use virtual old-school phone dial plates or … push buttons
As I see it, (in theory) it could be no more difficult to press buttons in the virtual cockpit using the index finger with Oculus Touch than it is today using a mouse. Instead of a mouse coursor a virtual hand or finger could be controlled by the player.
Of course that remains to be seen.
Greets!
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Using DCS as a baseline, as we don’t have anything else to compare to currently, saying the you need to reduce “some details” is somewhat optimistic. In a very sterile free flight in DCS I need to pretty much turn everything off if I want to keep my frame rate above 45fps.
BTW, Single pass stereo is already implemented in the new 10 series Nvidia cards.
And “touch controllers” (vive or rift) are a No for me. The only current viable option IMHO is the Leap with their Orion SDK
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I’ve been flying lots of cockpit games, and holy moly this is the best. Right now for bms its failing on DrawPrimitive but theres also errors for unsupported mag filter but that might be normal according to the comments. According to PIX it breaks when trying to load the background after the cursor, i think due to the weird way bms handles the 2d menu. The viewport is 1024x768. I know the device is lost during fullscreen mode but in windowed mode that error is gone but same result as before. The directx runtime debugger complains about not calling BeginScene() before each failed draw, so maybe bms is switching viewports or something after the proxy has already hooked and that screws it up? I dont know i have to research more how this works why it might break.
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Using DCS as a baseline, as we don’t have anything else to compare to currently, saying the you need to reduce “some details” is somewhat optimistic. In a very sterile free flight in DCS I need to pretty much turn everything off if I want to keep my frame rate above 45fps.
BTW, Single pass stereo is already implemented in the new 10 series Nvidia cards.
And “touch controllers” (vive or rift) are a No for me. The only current viable option IMHO is the Leap with their Orion SDK
Not if you have a good system. I run a 3.2 Ghz 6core, OC’d to 4.15, 64GB Ram, 1080GTX; and I can run DCS pretty high, almost maxed in VR.
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Cur gen vs next gen is a good question.
With current gen VR HMD the res is still not high enough for hard core simming (you can’t clearly read cockpit instruments for example). And the Hardware struggle is very real. You system should be able to achieve at least 45fps at all times at a screen resolution of 2160*1200 (render frame for the vive/rift). GTX970 struggles at these resolutions, 1080 probably behaves better. But still to good enoght for a demanding 3D env.Next gen BMS will probably be double the res @ 120 fps (which will make 40fps the minimum number)
You actually want no less than 90fps to match the 90hz. Some people’s eyeballs see flicker at different ranges, most wont see it at around 90hz.
Async timewarp will keep you from barfing below 90, but positional tracking and the rest of the world will be jumpy and slideshowy. It won’t feel like you are really there.
I dont understand when people say they can’t read the cockpit instruments, of course it depends on the plane and seat position (fsx physical seats are all the way back in the rails, you gotta move your position up for a reallife seat pos).
You have to supersample all the way to the limit and render higher than the rift’s screens, and everything is pretty much clear.
I tried the fsx crj with/without supersampling, without it i couldnt really read the glass panel. But with it, it was fine.
I have about as hard a time finding an airport as i do in real life, the same illusions are there. The fsx default scenery makes it way too easy to find airports.
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I am eagerly anticipating the VR experience in flight sims, but have made the decision to defer immediate gratification and hold off until 2nd gen VR. Hopefully by that time hardware and software development will overcome most of the currently cited difficulties.