El strobe elevation should "roll" even when FCR is not the SOI
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The reason this is important is because doing SEAD you need to have your HAD up. As I switch over to FCR from the HAS (WPN page) to check the air threat, I need to know where I’m looking (#1/4 looking SFC and above and #2/3 looking 20K and above). If I can’t see this as I’m in the HAD then I’m not executing my search contracts.
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Stevie,
You’re going to have to elaborate a bit more. The bar/az settings should not affect this. But to answer you, it’s the standard 4 bar, 60 az.
Anyway, the way it should work is if I DMS over to the HSD then if I roll my El strobe the elevation should change even with the SOI in the HSD. The way it currently works is if I DMS to the HSD and then roll I don’t see these changes until I DMS back over to the FCR making it my SOI again.
It affects it because the wider your az and the more bars you use the longer it takes to reach the end of frame - a frame includes completion of the bar pattern…and in my experience the indication of moving/changing your scan ELEV moves, but the antenna itself doesn’t actually move until end of frame…if this is the lag you’re noting in the time it takes you to reassign SOI I have to think this is correct behavior.
Personally, I prefer to using 2 bar scan for this reasoning…but wide az settings.
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It affects it because the wider your az and the more bars you use the longer it takes to reach the end of frame - a frame includes completion of the bar pattern…and in my experience the indication of moving/changing your scan ELEV moves, but the antenna itself doesn’t actually move until end of frame…if this is the lag you’re noting in the time it takes you to reassign SOI I have to think this is correct behavior.
Personally, I prefer to using 2 bar scan for this reasoning…but wide az settings.
Your understanding of how the radar works is completely correct. However, the point at which the antenna is at during it’s scan does not and is not affected by you rolling the el strobe. This just repositions where the antenna is looking. So in the jet it does not care that you are only halfway through the scan. When I roll my el strobe I need to know where I’m searching NOW. You don’t wait until the end of a full 4 bar scan.
As for searching 2 bars, this is not the standard in the USAF. We have things known as the Viper Standards which are contracts every Viper driver follows (to prevent having to brief something different every flight). These standards say that as #2 I will search 20K and above (i.e. bottom number on the FCR set to 20) with a CCR (cursor coordination range of 20) with a 4-bar, 60 AZ scan. This is important because it allows everyone in your flight to trust everyone to do their job and prevent leakers getting by (i.e. the low & fast striker).
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Your understanding of how the radar works is completely correct. However, the point at which the antenna is at during it’s scan does not and is not affected by you rolling the el strobe. This just repositions where the antenna is looking. So in the jet it does not care that you are only halfway through the scan. When I roll my el strobe I need to know where I’m searching NOW. You don’t wait until the end of a full 4 bar scan.
As for searching 2 bars, this is not the standard in the USAF. We have things known as the Viper Standards which are contracts every Viper driver follows (to prevent having to brief something different every flight). These standards say that as #2 I will search 20K and above (i.e. bottom number on the FCR set to 20) with a CCR (cursor coordination range of 20) with a 4-bar, 60 AZ scan. This is important because it allows everyone in your flight to trust everyone to do their job and prevent leakers getting by (i.e. the low & fast striker).
I get search contracts, I’m talking about when I’m on my own and want faster lock response. But in section really it depends more on what area of the sky you’re assigned and how much of it…
It depends on which radar, I guess…and how it meched - particularly in TWS. If you’re in RWS, MMV…but I doubt it. But I wouldn’t expect the search volume to actually change until end of frame (or end of bar), and that’s what the display is telling you. Or appears to be, from your description. May be a “problem”, doesn’t mean it’s “wrong”.
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I get search contracts, I’m talking about when I’m on my own and want faster lock response. But in section really it depends more on what area of the sky you’re assigned and how much of it…
It depends on which radar, I guess…and how it meched - particularly in TWS. If you’re in RWS, MMV…but I doubt it. But I wouldn’t expect the search volume to actually change until end of frame (or end of bar), and that’s what the doisplay is telling you. Or appears to be, from your description. May be a “problem”, doesn’t mean it’s “wrong”.
You’re implying that there is some type of lag between where my antenna is and where my el strobe is, and there’s not. When I roll the el strobe it immediately moves the antenna. Therefore instantaneously my search volume and where the radar is looking changes immediately. And as a pilot this is what I want. There are tactics that I can’t discuss here where every second matters because if I have to wait than it forces another tactic. I need instant results. And this is how it works in the jet.
Sidenote: don’t use TWS. RWS is pretty much the CAF standard. They call it Track While Lie for a reason. I can’t get into the whole discussion of the numbers and why it’s that way. It has to do with extrapolation with regards to a few different things.
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This could be an area that BMS doesnt match the real deal as much as it could, then. As I understand it, ‘extrapolation’ in BMS consists of free knowledge of exactly where the contact is.
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I’m sure what “El strobe” is (elevation strope <shrug>don’t know what that is either).
However, I thought that HAD uses the FCR as a sensor. Thus losing some of AA settings and fuctions.</shrug>
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Nope, HAD uses the HTS as a sensor.
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And I guess you dont believe HAD uses the RWR or the missile seeker either.
Anyway, using HAD and FCR together has always been buggy. I assumed it was rl.
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And I guess you dont believe HAD uses the RWR or the missile seeker either.
Anyway, using HAD and FCR together has always been buggy. I assumed it was rl.
Dont know for the RWR, didnt think so for the HARM missile seeker.
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I’m not up for finding reffs, The HTS is a range finder. On earlier generations the HTS pod looks more optical than radome. I believe the HAD page gets slant angel from seeker or/and fcr, vector from RWR and HTS pod laser ranger finds slant range using slant angel. HAS compiles many sensors to come up with solution. Big maybe <shrug>.</shrug>
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I’m not up for finding reffs, The HTS is a range finder. On earlier generations the HTS pod looks more optical than radome. I believe the HAD page gets slant angel from seeker or/and fcr, vector from RWR and HTS pod laser ranger finds slant range using slant angel. HAS compiles many sensors to come up with solution. Big maybe <shrug>.</shrug>
Still really off topic… but its not an optical sensor. Its not a range finder alone, either. Its a lot more complicated than that.
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Still really off topic… but its not an optical sensor. Its not a range finder alone, either. Its a lot more complicated than that.
Off topic would depend on witch generation of HTS pod is modeled and how the system works. Generation 5+ use rf sensors and high speed data processing.
Ever wondered why the HTS designate function stops working after the last missile is fired? (Some F4 versions) Mismodeled or rl
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Perhaps a new thread should be started to keep this one relevant to El strobe elevation implementation.
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You’re implying that there is some type of lag between where my antenna is and where my el strobe is, and there’s not. When I roll the el strobe it immediately moves the antenna. Therefore instantaneously my search volume and where the radar is looking changes immediately. And as a pilot this is what I want. There are tactics that I can’t discuss here where every second matters because if I have to wait than it forces another tactic. I need instant results. And this is how it works in the jet.
Sidenote: don’t use TWS. RWS is pretty much the CAF standard. They call it Track While Lie for a reason. I can’t get into the whole discussion of the numbers and why it’s that way. It has to do with extrapolation with regards to a few different things.
Fair comment/observation…but I guess what I’m saying is that your “el strobe” is lying to you, if you think you are changing your FCR reporting volume “instantaneously”. My take is that it shows you where you’ve commanded the antenna, not where the antenna actually is - not until end of bar, at the shortest interval…that’s one of the short comings of a mech-scanning antenna. And just to be clear, we are talking about the FCR and not something I’ve missed, eh?..
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Shouldnt that kind of behavior be noted in the dash, then? I cant see it in there.
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…noted elsewhere. The Dash 1 isn’t the end-all of how systems operate.
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…I clearly wasnt talking about the dash one, seeing as we are discussing the radar.
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Steveie,
I understand what you’re trying to say. Yes there is some type of lag in there because it is mechanical so you definitely have a lag compared to something like an AESA radar. But that’s not what this question/answer is about. This is about being having my SOI elsewhere and it not redrawing the search volume vertical limits next to my cursor until I DMS back over to the FCR (making it my SOI again) if I have rolled my el strobe. I literally just flew the jet today and the way BMS models this is incorrect. You don’t see it here because the HAD and HSD (L16) are not very well modeled or up to date. But sometimes I need my SOI over in the right MFD yet I still can roll my el strobe and see my search volume changing without having to DMS over.
To add, I can see exactly where my antenna is looking and which bar it’s on. The little tick marks on the side and bottom that move represent your antenna. You can literally watch it scan each bar.
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That’s why I asked about the “el strobe”…I guess it’s not something I’ve paid attention to. I’m thinking of it as the tick-marks on the side of the display that indicate the el setting/position. I’ll have to take a look myself…it makes sense to me that your controls would/could only be tied to your SOI and not split between two sensors at the same time; the two should be slaved though…I’d think. In which case there could also be some lag or error.