Comparing low-end to high-end joysticks
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Thanks guys.
I don’t doubt the general “the more you spend the better it gets”.
But my question is about center-precision (dead zone) precisely. -
Hi,
many years ago, in the 90ies, in the dark pre-BMS ages, I started with a Logitech Wingman, sometime in the 2000s bought a Microsoft Sidewinder Precision Pro.
Then, after getting into BMS, I got a used Saitek X45 HOTAS and when it started to die, finally got a Warthog.Now, the Warthog obviously beats them all, with its superb build quality, precision features, switches, POV-hats etc…
BUT I have to give the Sidewinder a honorable mention. I liked that stick a lot. Besides its tiny throttle and lack of sufficient hats and buttons, it was good. Good center precision allowed for smooth formation flight and refueling…
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Currently I use a Thrustmaster T Flight X as my stick and an X52 Pro throttle. The stick is essentially the same as yours, should use the same gimbal and sensors. It’s definitely not the best stick, but I find it workable until my replacement gets here. I can land just fine, and while AAR isn’t easy, it’s not impossible. Just takes some practice.
If you have the funds, do not discount options like the Virpil T-50 or VKB Modern Combat Grip. They’re on the ultra-premium side of the spectrum, but they’re on a different level altogether when compared to the Warthog or X-56, particularly when it comes to the gimbal and sensors. I have a MCG ordered, and can provide more input when it arrives next month.
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Regarding center play deadzone…
Stock TM Cougar sucks, nasty center play (was great in its opening days though). The springs and gimbals, plus analog potentiometers are old school. The rest of the stick is still very good which makes it still a good platform for Hall position and Strain force sensor mods.
Stock Whog is very good, minor center play (best bang for the buck)
Force modded Cougar or Whog rocks, virtually zero center play issues (expensive but top shelf)
There are other sticks?
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I had two low-end joysticks… well, three, actually. I had a Gravis joystick (can’t remember the model) that went bad after a while and got replaced by a newer iteration of the model. Years later, I had a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. The Logi was about 12-13 years ago. 7 years ago, I had a Cougar HOTAS, then got a Warthog 6 years ago.
the cheap man always pays twice!!
I can’t really vouch for whether this is true or not…. but simply put, my Cougars were always hangar queens. My Logitech went bad soon after purchase and I spent maybe half of it’s “lifespan” cleaning out the pots if I wanted to fly. My TM Warthog has never seen the inside of the box after I took it out.
My logic lately is that if I can afford it, I’ll buy equipment that will allow me to work my skill up to a higher level. I don’t want to practice AARs and not be able to connect due to bad hardware… I want my hardware to be very good such that if I practice AARs and not be able to connect, that would be because of ME not being able to connect to the tanker.
As for center precision and deadzones, well, the TM WH has HALL sensors so I think that’s as precise as you can make it. The issue at this level is not the sensor but rather the physical gimbals that are used.
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I use a Saitek X-65F, and I can’t imagine wanting to fly with anything else. Everything works as advertised and the programmability is highly flexible and robust.
Don’t know how easy it would be to find one in good shape, though. Never understood why they stopped making them.
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Thanks guys.
I don’t doubt the general “the more you spend the better it gets”.
But my question is about center-precision (dead zone) precisely.…still holds - +1 to what AV8R says!
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I had two low-end joysticks… well, three, actually. I had a Gravis joystick (can’t remember the model) that went bad after a while and got replaced by a newer iteration of the model.
Wow…I think I still have one of those around, someplace…a Mac one. I remember it’s big claim was that it was optically coupled. I think mine still even works, but I forget how it’s connected.
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As for center precision and deadzones, well, the TM WH has HALL sensors so I think that’s as precise as you can make it.
The T.16000M has Hall sensors too! That’s on a 40 EUR stick vs 200+ EUR for a Whog. I know the WH is much better with lots of more hats, switches and better (metal) durability. But does it mean in terms of precision it is the same?
The issue at this level is not the sensor but rather the physical gimbals that are used.
So what about those in comparison then?
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Wow…I think I still have one of those around, someplace…a Mac one. I remember it’s big claim was that it was optically coupled. I think mine still even works, but I forget how it’s connected.
Not sure if we’re talking about the same one. This was the Gravis joystick that I originally purchased, a Gravis Blackhawk Digital and when that went bad, I asked for and got a Gravis Eliminator Precision Pro. I remember activating the “precision mode” when practicing carrier landings in Jane’s F/A-18. Mind you, this was easily about 20 years ago
The T.16000M has Hall sensors too! That’s on a 40 EUR stick vs 200+ EUR for a Whog. I know the WH is much better with lots of more hats, switches and better (metal) durability. But does it mean in terms of precision it is the same?
So what about those in comparison then?I’m not sure as I’ve never used a T16000M stick. Both sticks boasts 16-bit precision but the TM WH page states 65536 x 65536 values while the T.1600M HOTAS page states 16000 x 16000 values?? The difference in price is clearly not in the HALL sensor technology but in the construction and switches/buttons of the different units.
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I had: genius f22, saitek evo, saitek X-52, CH Fighterstick, Thrustmaster Cougar and now I use Virpil T-50. T-50 is the best of all. The deflection force is adjustable, the center can be set soft - medium - hard. So virpil base t-50 + Cougar grip + throttle hotas cougar is a great kit. Customizable and metallic
Sorry for my english. -
I’m a mig geek so I need something like that virpil for the mig and the su…eventually.
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WOWZER, that throttle, phewwwww…they should of named it sex machine!
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Not sure if we’re talking about the same one. This was the Gravis joystick that I originally purchased, a Gravis Blackhawk Digital and when that went bad, I asked for and got a Gravis Eliminator Precision Pro. I remember activating the “precision mode” when practicing carrier landings in Jane’s F/A-18. Mind you, this was easily about 20 years ago
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iSCdls7YcxY/WeEeQ20WPSI/AAAAAAAABGg/2IXn6ovWaR8NjdTUal0vlFLOpNJMfB-mQCLcBGAs/s1600/JOY-1017-unit.jpg https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ecUvE2WXKtc/WeEdkdzurMI/AAAAAAAABGc/AHPVous25iw_iVXz_dJMJhOJj_3x-n_qACLcBGAs/s1600/41G7A66N1KL.jpg
I’m not sure as I’ve never used a T16000M stick. Both sticks boasts 16-bit precision but the TM WH page states 65536 x 65536 values while the T.1600M HOTAS page states 16000 x 16000 values?? The difference in price is clearly not in the HALL sensor technology but in the construction and switches/buttons of the different units.
No - mine is WAY simpler than that one, and probably much older…it’s like this one -
Way old-school…now that I see a picture it’s probably Mac ADB connected. But if I can find my old ADB-USB adapter, I think it would still work!
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No - mine is WAY simpler than that one, and probably much older…it’s like this one -
I suspected as much
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My very first joystick for my XT was this Quickshot marvel
That stick saw a lot of Falcon 1.0 action along with the original Gunship and F-19 Stealth Fighter.
At some point it was replaced by a Logitech Wingman Extreme, which I remember as being a very good stick. Very sturdy, comfortable and responsive.
The Wingman Extreme saw a lot of action in EF2000, F-15 Strike Eagle III, Gunship 2000, F-117 Nighthawk and Falcon 3.0 but it was replaced rather quickly with ……
The mighty Thrustmaster FLCS and TQS ……which I’m still using today.
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LOL @ old joysticks with suction cups….
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I’d like to see what would happen if someone tried to use “use it or die” in their advertising today…
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Since I actually am on the Lower End of Sticks, I owned for about 4 years a T.Flight Hotas X and never had any precision problems with it. Just needs a bit of lubricant every 3 or 4 months to stay loose and not squeaky. They’re a good starter stick, and there’s a great profile for BMS by BlueRaven that can be found Here.
I will warn however unless they’ve improved it it’s a bit sluggish to respond. it has a high deadzone which leads to it needing to be thrown around to get quick maneuvers out of it. And it’s Twist stick is activated basically by a metal Clothespin which in my case came loose and had to be reset. This lead to me needing to disassemble the grip and unaware that only screws and friction held it together, causing it to violently separate and sever the wire going to the trigger. Even after that the stick works fine, albeit without it’s trigger and I gave it to a friend who wanted it for some non-combat flying.
I have a Hotas 4 now, which is basically the X but rebranded for the PS4. It’s sadly gone up in price, (Was $50 for the 4 Compared to $45 for the X) but it’s definitely has a lower deadzone than the X and I’d Recommend it if it wasn’t 30 dollars more for one Quality of Life change and some different badges and paint.The T.16000M FCS HOTAS I was considering, but a lot of people hate the throttle and to me it looks small and cramped. After that, the Warthog is obviously King of the Castle but you’re going to need a good set of Pedals. After that it’s Saitek’s X Series. Which, Hopefully have improved in quality since I feel like I couldn’t go more than a few posts in anywhere without someone saying their’s stopping working after 5-6 months. If I’d not kept running into that, I’d have saved another month and gotten an X-56 myself.
And since we’re on the Topic of Old sticks… You guys are going to make me search my attic for my Sidewinder Force Feedback 2, Aren’t You?