BMS: graphic improvements are possible?
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Flying in VR is truly an experience worth trying. There are no words that can describe the difference it makes.
Forget 3d monitors/tvs or the effects of 3d cinema.
I’ll admit. I was skeptical too. I saw someones phone using cardboard and wasnt really impressed.
I had it down as a gimmick. Then I tired F18 DCS in VR with the HTC Vive.Everything changed. I have my mouse close to hand and can operate the cockpit no problem. Most functions are on the HOTAS anyway.
BenDean is right. Your eyes dont focus tightly at the lens so close to the face. Motion sickness are for those who struggle with the difference between being stationary in the real world - but yet are twisitng and turning around in a jet in the virtual.
The mind (and your stomach) takes a few “phantom” twitches here and there that you soon get used to.(worst one was minecraft -falling off a cliff and at the point of impact i would feel a jolt of energy shoot up my legs. My brain had trouble letting that one go for a while!! lol. Gone now)
There are always going to be people who are skeptical and even those that hate on it because of jealousy and or pride. Change takes time.
With new hardware (graphic cards and headsets) it will only get better.But I cant emphasis it enough. It really is the future.
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Considering the price of their efforts to keep Falcon still a free sim
I’d pay to have BMS VR compatible. Actually I’d pay for BMS as is. 4.33/4.34 are just… masterpieces.
After reading the entire post, I have to say both sides (VR vs TrackIR) have their merits. TrackIR is cheaper, serves the purpose of adding Situational Awareness, and the size and fidelity of the image is limited only by the monitor (and to some extent the GFX card). Those who have spent time and money on simpits with switches and MFDs has my respect. On the other side there are the VR enthusiast who spend money on 2080ti’s and Valve Index (HP Reverb or Oculus S, etc) they also have my respect because their contribution directly encourages the companies to build better and cheaper VR solutions. I have a VIVE and DCS dogfighting is a love-hate where it’s fantastic to know exactly where you are looking in relation to the nose of the aircraft but the resolution makes spotting/ID bit more difficult. VR FOV is compatible to a 28in monitor at 50 cm away so I think it’s just preference there. So right now it’s a trade off between true 1-1 head tracking, depth perception and resolution. The resolution part will improve as machines become more powerful.
So in conclusion, in my opinion TrackIR should NEVER be compared to VR. They are two very different beasts from two different eras. Instead, VR should be compared to full-on pits with clickable buttons/switches/knobs, fully working HUD and a dome projection system/multi-monitor setup. I’ll leave the hydraulics out because both sides can benefit from hydraulics. Such a pit will run up to the $tens of thousands which is comparable to what you’ll need to spend for a good VR experience (anyone heard of Varjo VR-1?) so comparing custom-built pits to a VIVE (or even HP Reverb) and then say VR is kaput is like racing a Tesla S P100D with a Vespa. You should really race the performance electric car with a performance electric motorcycle.
And LOL to those who said they tried VR a bit and it made them sick. I felt the same in the first go. Anyone who went up with a real jet would tell you their first experience was a lot of nausea and puking. Immersion.
P.S. Fresnel lens are specially designed optics to make a screen you strapped to your face appear to have infinite depth. Your eyes will focus to infinity, and beyond.
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I’d pay to have BMS VR compatible. Actually I’d pay for BMS as is. 4.33/4.34 are just… masterpieces.
But you can’t and it never will be payware. VR will come to BMS when the majority of BMS users want it. The technology needs to mature more IMO, its still in early stages yet. 3-4 weeks I’d say.:D
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I am confused now. This thread only talk about VR, but VR not yet possible in BMS, correct?
If VR now possible in BMS, how? I have Vive and want to try!
If only talk about VR, then ok. -
I am confused now. This thread only talk about VR, but VR not yet possible in BMS, correct?
If VR now possible in BMS, how? I have Vive and want to try!
If only talk about VR, then ok.Currently BMS does not have native VR support. This thread is about if it’s even worth it to spend effort on making VR support instead of other improvements, like additional features.
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Well this thread is derailed and kinda off topic.
Vr is not gfx improvement its different display output and input.So. The way it goes its another way to force pressure on devs to go vr. That they are left behind by others, that vr is mainstream, that once vr never monitor, which are out of focus of actual SIM.
Gfx improvements? We should all contribute to making 3d models or at least textures, terrains, and whatever.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T818A using Tapatalk
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In the VR headsets there are lenses between the screen and your eyes. These lenses make it so that your eye is not focused on a distance of 5 cm, and instead focuses on “to infinity” (like when you look in outside your window on a distant mountain, or the horizon), to the point that a near-sighted person needs to keep their glasses on to see well in VR.
So all the people joking about going blind or nearsighted from looking for too long at a screen stuck in their face are wrong, or at least exaggerating greatly.About the problem of looking at the keyboard with the headset on: I don’t think the situation is so catastrophic… Certainly being able too directly see the keyboard (with trackIR) makes it easier to push the right key, but I believe that after a bit of getting used to touch-typing with the VR headset on people wouldn’t have great difficulties.
This is clearly different in the case of pit-builders, for which I guess sight is quite more important.On the other hand, the other concerns about VR like low resolution, powerful GPU needed, motion sickness, new models needed, cost of the headsets, and developer effort needed for the implementation are absolutely relevant, in my opinion.
I am not talking about losing your eyesight I am talking about having a device that is emitting electromagnetic radiation attached to your HEAD.
No one knows the long term effects of having your eyes fooled like that but if you want to be a test pig be my guest. -
@BenDean87:
Calm down, your bias is showing
I am an IRL pilot, and yes of course VR lacks clarity in regards to real life. But so does a screen. Whats your point? That’s why these sims have functions like zoom.
I don’t believe putting my face near a 10W OLED screen for a few hours a week is any more life threatening than lots of other hobbies that people engage in. OLEDs produce very low EM radiation and not a lot of heat either so I’m not exactly sure what you’re so worried about. Its not like i’m strapping an CRT to my face.As you see above in the DCS strawpoll out of aprox 1300 people, 28% fly using VR. This is a decent chunk of the playerbase now, and this number is only going to grow as VR tech gets better and the sims get more optimised to use it.
You can argue how shit VR is all you like, but the fact is that more and more people are using it for sims and the numbers reflect that.
I would not fly with VR till they compensated for the poor visual accuity and even than I would not because I need to see my keyboard and again dont want screens attached to my face due to…
1. EM magnetic radiation.
2. Unknown long term effect on eyesight.
3. I dont fly only a couple of hours a week if I fly 3 to 4 times a week at 3 hours per… that 12 hours per week with that heavy ass sweaty thing attached to my face.
Thats 40 hrs a month or more sometimes if I get some days off could be more…There is no BIAS I have used and tried VR It is nice but it is not worth the risks and sacrificing comfortability possible health.
Sometimes I need to interact with family during a flight I cant be completely shielded off so … till then waiting for them to bring back 3d TV’s with 8k monitors …
I WISH VR was useful Flight Simulators are a great application but you dont want to be using that long term.The is reason VR has been Niche since the 80’s. Its always going to be a niche product flight simming and similar type games will be its main commercial application.
But those are itself niche.So now we are in a niche of a niche.
BMS should focus on first improving the graphics than VR.
I like the idea of VR is just not good enough the whole concept. 3D projector would be the best . -
I agree that GFX upgrading is more important than a VR implementation. Besides, you will need the updated GFX if and when VR becomes available for BMS. And, VR IS a new tech that is still growing into it’s own. I believe the reason why DCS has issues is because they are not using more updated GFX for the purpose of VR. Remember that VR is hardware that reproduces the GFX information within the sim. If the sim GFX is not scaled to the hardware (VR) then the VR will interpret the GFX improperly. Also, VR needs to continue to upgrade it’s own physical limitations. Such as FOV and scaling adjustments it interprets from the sim. Plus, being able to have a “see through” mode for viewing the keyboard. So, I think it will be some time before BMS is ready and the VR tech is also ready for a true VR experience.
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Good morning, Gentlemen.
Even if I substantially agree more or less with all the opinions stated before, and those last ones by Arty and jhook in particular, please let me clarify that I started this topic only with good intentions, but never to press the devs. to do this or that.
I only wanted to express an opinion and - this true - even a little wish, and not to start a cross-fire or a controversy with the devs. Please let me remember to all of you, a this purpose, that I premised improving or updating BMS’s graphics wouldn’t be an easy task.
And yes, of course this task just would come first. VR is another kind of matter, more on the ‘things to come later or in the future’ side, I mean - my apologies if I was not too much clear before, English isn’t my native language.With best regards.
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But you can’t and it never will be payware. VR will come to BMS when the majority of BMS users want it. The technology needs to mature more IMO, its still in early stages yet. 3-4 weeks I’d say.:D
Me thinks: VR will come to BMS when the majority of BMS devs want it.
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Well… of course, Shadow.
But also having this opportunity at hand in future wouldn’t too bad, I guess…
With best regards.
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My 2 cents:
I have 2 sons that own VR rigs. Sentry has a Vive its might be 12months or so old and the other, MattiChan has Sentrys older Oculus.
They do car racing online and Sentry also uses his for FPS and DCS I believe.
But what I have gleaned from their experience is that its great for racing and FPS situations but for Siming, while the SA is great, there are some issues still.
SO I let others spend money on that stuff while I look for a Monitor upgrade, something with Free-Sync, 32" again or BIGGER, 75Hz or faster, IPS Panel again AND a VESA mount (the hard bit to find).
I so miss having a third screen for manuals, docs and other stuff. -
Good morning, Gentlemen.
Even if I substantially agree more or less with all the opinions stated before, and those last ones by Arty and jhook in particular, please let me clarify that I started this topic only with good intentions, but never to press the devs. to do this or that.
I only wanted to express an opinion and - this true - even a little wish, and not to start a cross-fire or a controversy with the devs. Please let me remember to all of you, a this purpose, that I premised improving or updating BMS’s graphics wouldn’t be an easy task.
And yes, of course this task just would come first. VR is another kind of matter, more on the ‘things to come later or in the future’ side, I mean - my apologies if I was not too much clear before, English isn’t my native language.With best regards.
This is a civil opinion from the community as a response. No flames or anything like that. IMO, the tech needs to improve. For BMS, the GFX will have to improve towards that at some point, but I am not holding my breath here. It is a good discussion. I think the devs are looking into GFX updating and scaling issues with newer GFX engines (different GFX engines). Which is the best to pursue? I believe it will probably be DX 11. And if that is the case, like Arty has been saying, BMS will need to create newer models and terrain. A daunting task! But worth the efforts! But that is what BMS would need to do from there side. Maybe adjustable scaling through the GFX cards. But after that, it is up to the hardware to make use of this properly. So, as with everything, time will tell.
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My 2 cents:
I have 2 sons that own VR rigs. Sentry has a Vive its might be 12months or so old and the other, MattiChan has Sentrys older Oculus.
They do car racing online and Sentry also uses his for FPS and DCS I believe.
But what I have gleaned from their experience is that its great for racing and FPS situations but for Siming, while the SA is great, there are some issues still.
SO I let others spend money on that stuff while I look for a Monitor upgrade, something with Free-Sync, 32" again or BIGGER, 75Hz or faster, IPS Panel again AND a VESA mount (the hard bit to find).
I so miss having a third screen for manuals, docs and other stuff.What I look for in improving VR’s current standards is a VR headset that is curved so as to cover your field of vision better. Also being able to switch to see your keyboard and HOTAS. There is NO WAY you can program every BMS function into any HOTAS. There is just too many pit and in game functions. Also the VR system has to be able to interpret GFX information and scale properly. Those 2 factors is big ones with the sim world IMO. So the tech has a long way to go IMO. Also, the 4k and 8k VR systems are in the thousands of $$$ ($8,000+). Not in many simmers price range (certainly not in mine). But as with OLED and QLED tech coming down a lot in price, so will the VR systems eventually.
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Well it’s like fist releases of Microsoft products… those that know wait until they are stable and do the work as they should.
So let’s wait and let others take the pain and loose money. thank you for doing so and contributing to vr evolution. When it will mature it will drop from the tree.Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T818A using Tapatalk
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Physic cockpits and VR are two very different things, amazing both on their own. I am lucky enough that I can enjoy them both, and I do at very different levels.
I got into VR about one and a half years ago. I was so curious about it that I could not resist to buy an Oculus Rift set and plugged it into an MSI laptop well below the minimum requested just for testing. I was sold on the spot. Quickly I invested in a new rig with a 1080ti and ordered a custom-made stand for a long central-stick HOTAS setup. I use this setup exclusively for VR. The sensorial immersion is amazing, I use it mostly for DCS with the AV8B and Tomcat and some acrobatic training in Xplane. VTOL operations never get old with VR, specially around the boat. Low level pop-up attacks are mind blowing. I never got sick with VR and I know sick, I have trained aerobatics IRL and sometimes I wished the damned plane to crash to put me out of my misery. I mean I am not one of those lucky ones with bullet proof stomachs but still I never got sick with VR.
I have been a F16 pit builder since 2008. I have a full cockpit not finished but near to. I can fly without touching the keyboard and turning off the 3D cockpit in the simulator. I use it with TrackIR and a 47" TV. I use it exclusively for BMS. I fly campaign with around 15 squadron mates or TLP international missions with up to 25-30 pilots. The mental immersion of being in a combat mission is brutal. From the preparation of the physical kneeboards full of checklists, data cards, comm cards, 9-liners, procedures, navegations charts… to the hopping into your cockpit, doing the ramp start and flying a 2-2,5 hour mission without a second of free time is amazing. Last adition was Voiceattack which wisely used together with the new 4.34 ATC/AWACS makes you forget on ocasions you are talking to an AI.
I love them both, but as I said, in two very different ways. I cannot fly with VR the type of missions that I fly on my pit with BMS. I know there are many who said they don’t have problems to fly “serious” missions in VR, they lift the googles or peek out to read documents, write or use the keyboard which, for me, destroys the whole point of the VR. Others use the virtual kneeboard which superimposes a window with documents on top of your view, it does not work for me either in terms of immersion. On the other hand I will never get in my cockpit the flying sensation that I get from the VR. A dogfight or a bombing run will never feel the same again just with trackIR.
If one has to choose? Depends the kind of simmer you are. For me VR is more casual and cockpit+TrackIR more “pro” combat simulation.
So, regarding BMS, I will not use VR even if it is implemented. Therefore I prefer if they use their time to develope on going deeper and deeper into the simulation, systems, weather, comm… as they have done brillantly so far.
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Currently BMS does not have native VR support. This thread is about if it’s even worth it to spend effort on making VR support instead of other improvements, like additional features.
Many thanks! But is possible to play BMS in VR even no native VR support? If yes, how?
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Many thanks! But is possible to play BMS in VR even no native VR support? If yes, how?
A popular method is to use virtual desktop and open track. However because falcon BMS refresh rate is locked at 60 Hz when you move your head the movement will appear to lag. You will also not have 3D depth perception as Falcon does not have a Z-buffer for depth map for reshade to use. But you can get 1-1 head tracking. You can find more details of this method on other threads.
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Doctor Who: The Edge of Time. This is what were talking about…Flying the Tardis…:eyebrows: