Did the f-16 carry th e aim-7 in the gulf war?
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No F-16’s deployed to Desert Storm were carrying the AIM-7. These were all AIM-9 only. Indeed only the ADF version at the time was able to carry the Sparrow and none of these units deployed to Desert Storm.
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As someone who has played the campaign a lot and loves the theatre, I say just remove AMRAAM all together for a ODS campaign. The F-16 operated Air to Ground and it should be kept doing that in the campaign
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I agree removing Amraams is essential and it has solely already huge impact on gemeplay.
On the other hand…. I guess removing ARHs do not make F-16 pure AG. If it is still multirole (all default F16 flags, settings, AI rules), ATO will generate CAPs and SWEEPS with heaters (just like with MiG-21s, F-5s etc.)
This is limit of simulation and perhaps not so easy to finetune. When F-16 drops her MK-84, it is true beast…and guys inside are Viper drivers, they should be agressive
But there is some discipline since F3.0 times. ATO generated AG sorties used to have the main waypoint no. 3 (it was Bomb+“target”, CAS, S&D, Interdiction, SEAD) and other waypoints were ESCORT (besides takeoff+land). These flights were nice, patient and calm, did not attack AN-24s etc. But they were often shoot from behind by agressive defenders during long missions, especialy right before final landing
So I always changed my own hand tweaked packages to CAP in turning points to be more active, and it made big difference.Ok, F4 especialy BMS is different beast, but I had often similar experience (AG flights calmly following waypoints + some lazy dodging when under fire)…
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So apparently the ANG F-16 did carry Sparrows but did not partake Desert Storm, all the sparrow shots were done by F-15. I guess my source should be pretty much reliable
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So apparently the ANG F-16 did carry Sparrows but did not partake Desert Storm, all the sparrow shots were done by F-15. I guess my source should be pretty much reliable
Except one AIM-7 kill.
https://www.rjlee.org/air/ds-aakill/DATE CALLSIGN UNIT CREW AIRCRAFT SERIAL TARGET ORDNANCE
17 Jan 1991 QUICKSAND 62 VFA-81 Nick “Mongo” Mongillo F/A-18C 163502 F-7B Fishbed AIM-7Maybe F-14s launched AIM-7 but I never heard about such thing.
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When F-16 drops her MK-84, it is true beast….and guys inside are Viper drivers, they should be agressive
The guys inside all got lengthy briefings about engaging only where necessary for self defence, and to not take any undue risks. One guy got sent home for doing a strafing run against a ground target, under that instruction.
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So apparently the ANG F-16 did carry Sparrows but did not partake Desert Storm, all the sparrow shots were done by F-15. I guess my source should be pretty much reliable
Yes, that is correct. The only Guard F-16 units deployed were the NY and SC ANG and they didn’t fly the ADF. F-16’s were also used in A-G roles. A-A was done by the F-15C’s. F-16’s would only do A-A if they needed to defend themselves, which didn’t happen. Although I think one or two F-16’s did actually squeeze off an AIM-9 by accident.
Not sure about the F-14 and Sparrow. In Desert Storm the F-14 only had one kill against a helicopter. And I think that one was shot down by an AIM-9. So I don’t think the F-14 shot a Sparrow in Desert Storm. They did shoot them against the Libyan Migs in the 80’s.
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In fact theres a warning about that specifically in the manual, because of those accidental AIM-9 releases!
The warning being, pickle and hold to ensure you get a valid release, suggested technique of nose through the horizon before releasing the pickle, and ensure pickle is released before changing mastermode, because changing into A-A mastermode with the pickle still held will result in AIM-9 release.
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The only GW A-A F-16 incident I have seen IIRC was on the 19th Jan during a large raid that mostly went wrong and the F-4G Weasels and F-15Cs had already left the area. It was mentioned in GWAPs Vol 2 and in more detail in AirForces Monthly (June 1992):
__Unknown to Maj Tullia, Tico was hit by an SA·3. He had an uncorrelated missile launch on his radar warning receiver (RWR), and as he turned, he visually acquired the missile guiding on his aircraft from below. He timed his missile break turn, the missile overshot his aircraft and detonated behind him. Unfortunately, the miss distance was not sufficient to guarantee the safety of his aircraft, and Tico observed large, peeled-back holes on the surface of the jet with fuel, oil, and hydraulic fluid forming a smoke trail behind him.
While Tico was egressing, all the warning lights in his cockpit had illuminated, and he had no indication of airspeed, heading, or altitude. Fortunately, Capt. Bruce Crutch Cox was nearby, and the two of them formed a Flight as they headed south. As the two were egressing, Crutch received some very unusual radar warning indications. About that time the AWACS called bandits airborne and heading south out of Baghdad. The bandits in this case were MiG-29 Fulcrum fighters. Crutch pitched back to look at the source of the threat warning with his radar and saw that he was flying line abreast with one of the MiGs. As he turned into the MiG and locked onto it with his radar, it turned and ran. Since Crutch didn’t have the fuel to chase him, he turned his attention back to helping Tico.__
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In fact theres a warning about that specifically in the manual, because of those accidental AIM-9 releases!
The warning being, pickle and hold to ensure you get a valid release, suggested technique of nose through the horizon before releasing the pickle, and ensure pickle is released before changing mastermode, because changing into A-A mastermode with the pickle still held will result in AIM-9 release.
IIRC, this was in the Vipers in the Storm book.
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I believe there is mention of it there? Excellent book, its been too long since Ive read it.
The warning in the -34 doesnt mention the origin, but given that the accidental AIM-9 fires are from desert storm, it makes sense.
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Apparently Bahrain’s block 40s might have been the only Vipers to carry Aim-7 in the gulf war.
Aim-7f was sold to the country by 1988
AIM-7 was qualified on the F-16 for FMS in late 1989
image.jpeg
they wanted Aim-7 from the start
They definitely did use Aim-7 at some point it’s just pinning down when
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@frixon28 If you want that realism then you should consider the realism of so many other flights attacking baathi iraqi at that time. Many of them were deployed from incirlik as well as europe. But we are currently not getting that in the theater. To offset that I use ammrams for this theater.
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@Reaperdog1 said in Did the f-16 carry th e aim-7 in the gulf war?:
https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/104575/aim-7-sparrow/
@Reaperdog1 said in Did the f-16 carry th e aim-7 in the gulf war?:
https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/104575/aim-7-sparrow/
This fact sheet is too inaccurate an vague for any use. The first F-16 with AIM-7 capability was the ADF variant. Were launch test in the 70s with AIM-7, but the radar, the AN/APG-66 simply did not have the features to provide the CW or quasi CW illumination for the AIM-7F. The AIM-7M arrived only from 1982 and it had more than one main guidance mode.
The F-16s outside the ANG and ADF variant were not AIM-7 capable.
Period.
The current post 2000 export F-16s had this capability because of the AN/APG-68 and export restrictions. It had to be provided at least something because many operators (Iraq, Egypt) could not get the AIM-120. -
Yeah Molni has it basically there - the first ADF was delivered in 1989.
On the F-16 having no Sparrow until 1989 I have to go with 3 different people who were part of the F-16 development in the 1970s who say politics ( F-15 related).
With no requirement for AIM-7, Westinghouse left the CW module off as a future growth provision.General Dynamics guessed that someone would want AIM-7 down the road so did their own unguided separation testing (as in the video above) using a YF-16 that had no FCR.
AMRAAM was supposed to be in service 1985/86 but was very delayed…a senate hearing from the late 80s does mention they were waiting for AMRAAM and not going to put AIM-7 on as a band aid measure.
The ADF on the other hand had a specific requirement for AIM-7 as part of its Air defence mission so the APG-66 was given the CW module for them.
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So many non-test aircraft on internet…
I am even sure that upgraded aircraft who had AIM-7 capability still have it.
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@Radium
Top one is a ROCAF Block 20 - one of the ones they kept at Luke AFB - manufactured and delivered from around 1996/1997.
The ADF and the block 20 being the only A/B versions with the APG-66 that used the Sparrow that I have seen operational photos of. -
I bet you didn’t knew this one :
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@Radium
I don’t for certain … I would have said only Sparrow was launched from that position because the reason to launch from those mockup pylons was supposedly because it represented the most challenging launch case for the missile.I have even seen people label that as part of the July 1979 Skyflash trials but not something I have followed up.
to add…
When they changed the pylons on the wing probably during the FSD stage the clearance for that location was gone anyway.
General Dynamics did some early brochures before the flight tests showing intention for AIM-7 to go there. But from what i was told the pylons were pure mockup…there was no intention to integrate them in anyway by that time.