The most recent real life guns kill in a dogfight was 32 years ago
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the last recorded instance was 32 years ago, near the end of the Iran-Iraq war, when an Iranian F-4 Phantom took out an Iraqi Su-22 with its 20mm cannon.
source:
https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2020/11/15/fighter-aircraft-will-soon-get-ai-pilots -
Exactly, and I can’t figure out why guys get hung up on gunfights in modern fighters. I love them in WW2 planes. Modern fighters? Not so much because I know they aren’t done anymore.
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It’s more like air combat isn’t done much anymore. IIRC, Iran-Iraq war was the last time two roughly equivalent air forces went at it full tilt. Everything after that was a one-sided turkey shoot that usually ended with the weaker air force destroyed on the ground.
Guns come into play when the missiles aren’t enough to decide the engagement. In Vietnam, it happened because missiles were unreliable and fighters didn’t carry a whole lot of them. In modern times, for it to happen it would require both up to date countermeasures on both aircraft and comparable performance, and we simply haven’t had any fights between such planes.
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Exactly, and I can’t figure out why guys get hung up on gunfights in modern fighters. I love them in WW2 planes. Modern fighters? Not so much because I know they aren’t done anymore.
I think it’s like they said in the video of the last dogfighters/ speed and angels. Learning to dogfight is the most difficult skill to master. If you can do that, everything else becomes easier. And it’s the last bastion of fighter pilotness. It’s knight against knight, 2 warriors going against each other and one comes out on top. Plus it’s simply a lot of fun.
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I think it’s like they said in the video of the last dogfighters/ speed and angels. Learning to dogfight is the most difficult skill to master. If you can do that, everything else becomes easier. And it’s the last bastion of fighter pilotness. It’s knight against knight, 2 warriors going against each other and one comes out on top. Plus it’s simply a lot of fun.
You nailed it… it’s exactly why we love to go guns!
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the last recorded instance was 32 years ago, near the end of the Iran-Iraq war, when an Iranian F-4 Phantom took out an Iraqi Su-22 with its 20mm cannon.
There has been at least one more guns kill since then https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16565/watch-this-crazy-video-of-a-venezuelan-f-16-gunning-down-an-ov-10-bronco
A USAF F-16C may have also shot down a Ababil drone in 2009 with cannon.
But yes A-A engagements have become very rare post Cold War.
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I think it’s like they said in the video of the last dogfighters/ speed and angels. Learning to dogfight is the most difficult skill to master. If you can do that, everything else becomes easier. And it’s the last bastion of fighter pilotness. It’s knight against knight, 2 warriors going against each other and one comes out on top. Plus it’s simply a lot of fun.
I love them in a P-51 against a BF-109.
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I do too, but I love them in the Viper as well. And it’s still useful practice, even though dogfights/gun kills are extremely rare or unlikely nowadays. You’re still getting to know your jet on the edge of the envelope and learn tactics etc. All useful skills, you never know when you need that.
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That’s true it’s fun in BMS. Not so much in DCS Viper.
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That’s because DCS Viper controls (and the FM probably too) are currently bodged. Hopefully this will be resolved by the time it leaves EA.
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Exactly, and I can’t figure out why guys get hung up on gunfights in modern fighters. I love them in WW2 planes. Modern fighters? Not so much because I know they aren’t done anymore.
True, Buzz, but you gotta admit it’s fun, and not just A to A. Here we are with JSOW, JDAM, SLAM, etc., but there’s still something special about dropping CBU’s on a Bad Guy
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Yes, they’re fun but don’t tell anybody I said so.
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Yes, they’re fun but don’t tell anybody I said so.
Funniest thing is that all started with f4 which don’t have internal gun in it’s early versions cause it’s “not needed”.
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I’d also point out that the last U.S. air to air kill could have gone to guns after the AIM-9X failed to track and the pilot was able to switch to AIM-120 quickly enough. The F/A-18E pilots even made three flare drop warning passes of the Fitter which made them BOTH be in guns envelope at some point.
Being pro-gun, I’d also point out that strafe has become a much more utilized with the limited air defenses of Afghanistan and post 2003 Iraq. Not that it would probably be a good tactic with a near peer enemy.
Final guns thought, if stealth and DIRCM become prevalent, you might have a guns renaissance before they all switch to drones “with freaking laser beams attached.”
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Like the great Hoser said: no kill like a guns kill!
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Im BMS, I usually use guns against heavies, helos and An-2s. Not so much against fighters.
Using guns against MiG-17 and MiG-19 is generally fine and sometimes I kill them with guns despite still having missiles.
I only use guns against MiG-21s if I’m winchester, because they can kill you with an R-60 if you’re having a bad day. However, I would still pick fights against them if I encounter them on egress.
Fighting MiG-23s without missiles is possible, but I prefer not to do it, because they additionally have AA-7s. I would rather avoid them.
Attacking MiG-29s with nothing but guns is basically suicide. I tried it one time, because a flight of MiG-29s was 10NM behind me and I was winchester. I died.On the other hand, I recently scored a guns kill against a J-11.
The Flanker (only one) got into a dogfight against my wingman and another F-16 (both F-16s were out of heaters). They could have gotten the J-11, but AI is terrible with guns, so they didn’t shoot. I engaged another flight of Flankers in the meantime and when I turned home because I fired my last missile, I noticed that the furball was very close. I tried to find the Flanker, but before I found it, it fired an R-60 at me. I only survived because my wingman warned me. When I found it, I was in a relatively good position and after a short turn, I fired.This only happened because the AI on both sides failed in BVR and then the blue AI was too stupid to use guns, despite being in firing position.