Mission 5 aar is sooooo harrrrddddd
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Imho, I don’t think that playing with the curves will help you. BMS has allready curves iirc, so putting curves on top of curves without a well thought of reason doesn’t seem like a good idea to me.
I think the AP won’t help you either.
I think the only thing that will help is practice.
When I decided that I wanted to learn aerial refueling I did the training mission every day. I really sucked bad. Many tanker crews died.
After about 2 weeks of daily practice it got better and I could connect to the boom most of the time. Only in the straight legs and I didn’t stay connected very long, but it’s was a beginning.
So i kept practicing.
I still suck at refueling, but it’s getting better. My formation flying improved a lot, and a few weeks ago I even connected and refueled in the turn.
So just relax, wiggle your toes and keep practicing!
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AP doesn’t work for formation flying. You’ll find out pretty soon.
Ninja’d.
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Any thoughts on using the AP ?
Personnally , not particularly fond of this … Why ?
I think the AP won’t help you either.
AP doesn’t work for formation flying. You’ll find out pretty soon.
Because , if you turn the AP ''on" , it will mask all the corrections of throttle/trim you could have made(your plane could make a big bump suddenly when turning off the AP , plus it could make you lose some precious seconds if you have to react quickly for any reason(e.g incoming missile , wingman suddenly going crazy or whatever…)
obtaining the proper altitude is hard because even 0.5 degree pitch means bouncing many feet up or down close up to the tanker.
True . That’s why , as being said by the other pilots (in a different way) : Be (very)smooth , be (very)gentle , relax ! .
I also found yesterday that it is better for me to correct one thing at a time
And you are doing right , to start with this training . With some practice , you will soon begin to anticipate and you’ll do 2 things at once without noticing it .
That’s why I talked to you about chopper driving : the same principles applies there , but are even more critical .
If you open , even a bit ,your throttle , the speed will increase, soon or later , leading eventually to a slight gain of altitude . So , when close to the tanker , it’s better to play with very slight speed adjustments(assuming you are lined up with the tanker) : the plane will smoothly go up ; As you said , direct pitch correction can be to too violent if you aren’t used to play the game.
An alternative way to pitch efficiently close to the tanker can be to use the trim up or down (but be careful of the correction of speed!)
A simple rule : I want to go up = More throttle= be prepared to trim down a bit to correct the move.
I wanna go down = Less throttle = be prepared to trim up a bit to correct. Banking to the left or right ? You might lose some speed , so be prepared to put a tiny bit more throttle and to trim up or down to correct (depends of the qty of energy you lost)…
Once you’ll be used to this , you will be able to invert the maneuver to do things more quicly : I wanna go up ? = I pitch up while instantly correcting the loss of speed with more throttle(anticipation) .
The aircraft in the training TE is finely trimmed, so if I pitch up and let go of the stick, should it not eventually revert back to flying level again?
Nope : pitching up(without correcting with the throttles) = You will break your speed = the plane will want eventually to go down = you are good for a bit of “Yo-Yo” flying experience: it could be fun if you weren’t supposed to connect to the boom …
As said in the other post and as you noticed, don’t look your HUD , all the process should be done visually : your eyes will tell you all that you need (closure rate , aspect of the tanker , altitude of the tanker relative to yours) .
Gl !
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My 2 cents:
Personally my problem is with the longitudinal axis (fore-aft). Just so damn hard to get the right throttle setting. Either i overshoot or need to catch up. Having a good throttle controller definitively helps. You can’t do it with a sticky one.Second, extending air brakes can help during training!
Because it makes throttle input less prone to overshooting.
Especially in the clean configuration in TE5.Fact is i made my first successful AAR two days ago with a freshly greased TWCS throttle and extended air brakes.
Now working on reducing the air braking. :?
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Throttle control is difficult because it takes the engine a few seconds to react. So I try to keep the corrections very small, and as soon as the plane starts to react, I try to put the throttle back to where it started.
A very useful tip I learned from Oakdesign is to look at the Fuel Flow Indicator to judge your throttle settings.
Goes like this: When flying formation with the Tanker before Contact at around 300kts, check your Fuel Flow Indicator. Depending on your loadout/weight your fuel flow will be around 4400 ish. If you increase the throttle your fuel flow will rise and you will close up to the tanker. If you put your throttle back to the original fuel flow number, your plane should settle at 300kts.
Watching your fuel flow gives you a more immediate response to your throttle settings, as fuel flow rises way quicker than engine rpm and speed. And it gives you a reference point for your throttle position whether you are accelerating or decelerating towards the tanker.
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I never look at perfect fuel flow setting or try to find the “right throttle setting,” because there is none. Once I got that spurious idea out of my head tanking was so much easier. It just requires constant micro back and forth of the throttle and sometimes often micro inputs on stick. Just settle in and slowly adjust. Push stick forward then back in small bursts of thrust until you hook up. Watch the lights and adjust accordingly. It is a knack and once you get it, it is not so hard. No air brakes either.
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My 2 cents:
Personally my problem is with the longitudinal axis (fore-aft). Just so damn hard to get the right throttle setting. Either i overshoot or need to catch up. Having a good throttle controller definitively helps. You can’t do it with a sticky one.Now working on reducing the air braking. :?
Forget about finding that sweet throttle setting that lets you hook up and you keep it there for the entire duration. As soon as fuel flows, your plane gets heavier, requiring just a tiny bit more throttle, the tanker speed may vary by a few knots and whatnot.
you’ll need to make constant (although tiny) throttle adjustments the entire time while being hooked up to the tanker. When I still used the HOTAS Cougar I got so frustrated after many failed attempts that I started see-sawing the throttle just for the heck of it, and lo and behold suddenly it was much easier to control my speed w/r to the tanker.
Whle the amount of “see-sawing” on the Warthog I use now is much smaller, still constant (hehe :)) adjustments are required, both with stick and throttle simultaneously. Once you get the hang of it it’ll feel like riding a bike and you’ll wonder how you ever had so much trouble hitting pre-contact (depending on your beer level, of course :))
Most importantly, relax.
All the best, Uwe
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Alright, I have just come off with a full tank!! Yay! Was it pretty? No. Did I get gas? Yes!
Phew, where do I start. As Logic mentions, the speed to catch the tanker: That is a double-edged sword which I had to figure out. I spent far too much time behind the tanker getting bounced around by the jetwash. On one hand speed needs to be high enough to fight thru the jetwash, so say 310, but as soon as I get close enough the jetwash is gone and the speed is now much too high to stabilize behind the boom. I tried applying brakes briefly, but that would send me down to 295 or so, back into the jetwash again. In stead, I took a page from oakdesigns book where he actually kills the throttle to idle, this turned out to be enough to go from 310 to 301 in those few feet of overtake. Of course, the trick then becomes to bring the throttle right back up from idle to the sweet spot of 300-301 again. Here, fuel flow is useful as a reference, but I found myself glancing too much on that, briefly losing sight of the tanker. I was cursing myself for not turning up engine sound louder at that stage. In stead felt the throttle position at 310 and got a feel for “a little less than that”.
As for my throttle it is ok quality, but even though I have set the idle cutoff at right before bottom placement, I find it strange that the idle (fuel flow of ~900) is in the middle of the throw, so I only have half an “arc” of movement for the actual speed management above idle. Is that a setting somewhere, because I noticed in the F-18 the full range of motion affects the rpm?
hoover, your point about minute throttle movement is well taken, what I noticed was that the corrections I had to do while connected were mostly stick. But minute ones to constantly have the yellow line centered. At one point did I have to go forward a bit so a slight tap on the throttle was enough. Perhaps that changes with loadout? I flew the clean jet in the AAR TE (mission 5) and it was very stable once under the tanker and hooked up. As for what Icarus mentions, the back and forth of the throttle I need to get a better feel for. I tend to move the throttle forward and then back by too much losing speed as a result.
Another thing I found useful was to use a throttle button for fuel door, so I did not have to look away from the tanker at any point.
So I will study this some more, try the heavy jet too. It was very encouraging for me to read StevieG’s post about training regularly. In fact, this last week I have had somewhat that mindset almost like homework and it has helped me. When I get even better at this, I will try some of lolo’s suggestions with hitting two moving targets at once, throttle+stick at the same time, throttle to compensate for altitude lost due to stick, that is graduate school material but I hope I will get there. I have also enrolled in the Falcon Lounge starter school, to maintain my own discipline about this.
Thanks again for all input, see you in the skies!
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throttle+stick at the same time
Beware ! Not always really at the same time( I was always talking about anticipation) !!! Gradually !And very close to a tanker: forget it !! , as everyone said we need to be gentle . All the contrary of the true “Throttle +stick” !
I am realizing that throttle + stick is hard to explain (at least in BMS , I’m only a sim fighter pilot) ….
Try a Su-33 in BMS and do a AAR (the tanker is here only a good visual reference ) or fly formation : set the AI at low speed… then fly with high AOA from a constant but higher speed(higher speed gap between planes=higher AOA for your exercice, so more corrections with your throttle) , and (try to)maintain alt . Then, nose down (i mean “flat” , sorry for my confused english) , while trying to maintain your alt the best (the longest) you can .Rejoin the AI then repeat . Aim for this result, the Sukhoi is powerful enough for this practice and is 100% forgiving, whatever you do you know you won’t stall . Try this exercise and you are done in all cases, for example maintaining steady and close formation.
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Nicely done, jayb! :mrgreen:
That first time on the boom is hugely satisfying. And you’ll continue to derive satisfaction as you get better.
“In fact, this last week I have had somewhat that mindset almost like homework and it has helped me.” … that is a great mindset to have! Determination and discipline are getting you there… and will continue to do so
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As for the jetwash, maybe you’re approaching the tanker too high? It’s fine to fly level while waiting for your refuelling spot, but behind the tanker when going for pre-contact you should stay slightly below (put the gun cross on the end of the boom or thereabouts).
Cheers, Uwe
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I spent many hours with AAR. What helped me most, at least in the beginning, was to turn off the hud. This forced me to develop a feel for speed, altitude and direction. I sounds counter-intuitive but it worked, at least for me.
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I spent many hours with AAR. What helped me most, at least in the beginning, was to turn off the hud. This forced me to develop a feel for speed, altitude and direction. I sounds counter-intuitive but it worked, at least for me.
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+1
Also, start by approaching off the tanker’s wing, in formation. When you are confortable there, then move to the boom pre-contact.
Easier to learn formation on the wing rather than behind -
Yes, thanks - formation, formation, formation That is now my curriculum for the next couple of training sessions - off the wing and with no or minimal HUD. That - and a trick for fine-tuning my vertical position that I thought about today while out running (which may or may not work, let’s see).
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My tip would be to use the snap pit, not 3D with TrackIr, when refuelling. It gives you a steady frame of reference vs the tanker and helps you build the image you so need to get into the right position. All the other tips are valid too: relax, gentle on the controls and practice.
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That’s a good point, i have noticed in videos that some turn off trackir up close with the tanker
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thanks all, im suprised the post blew up
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That’s a good point, i have noticed in videos that some turn off trackir up close with the tanker
So this had quite a nice effect. Turned off TrackIR with F9. Then the “place the guncross on the boom” flight profile is easier to execute. I have also noticed that I tend to get in trouble with my vertical placement after getting cleared to contact position. I think the boom-in-your-face is psyching me So I now just focus on keeping the fpm on the horizon line after clearance to take my mind off the boom, I can always crab sideways for fine-tuning, but vertical issues are a gamebreaker.
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Yeah, this is something I kept doing wrong during my first AAR attempts in FreeFalcon. You need to trust the boomer to take that boom up once you drive towards it. If you try to dodge it, you’ll never hook up.
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I have also noticed that I tend to get in trouble with my vertical placement after getting cleared to contact position. I think the boom-in-your-face is psyching me So I now just focus on keeping the fpm on the horizon line after clearance to take my mind off the boom, I can always crab sideways for fine-tuning, but vertical issues are a gamebreaker.
I hear ya! I have experienced that exact same thing, a lot. I completely agree that the sight of that boom right in front of you, when you’re moving toward it, causes all sorts of trouble. I think the subconscious mind causes me, at least, to pull back on the stick or push forward, without hardly realizing it, in an effort not to run into that boom. And those little pitch inputs quickly turn into self-amplifying pilot-induced oscillations real quickly.
I think you’ve got a real good idea about taking your mind off the boom. Eventually I told myself “Screw it! It’s a sim! I’m gonna run right into that @#$% boom if that’s what it takes, on my way to the contact position!” And that helped. The boomer will move the boom, or you’ll magically pass through it. Acting like it’s not there is helpful, I think.
The most useful tip I picked up - can’t remember where - is that whenever I make a control input, and start to notice even the tiniest effect from it, I should immediately take out half of what I just put in. If I push the throttle forward a tiny bit, and I notice the beginning of a slight forward motion (relative to the tanker), I immediately pull back by an amount that feels like about half of the previous forward input.
That seems to help turn the “self-amplifying pilot-induced oscillations” into “damped oscillations” that don’t run away as much. It’s not perfect, but I have found that it helps me.