Very basic Hornet questions
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But the green circle is aligned to the center of the Viper bracket, no? I think I get what you’re saying, though … both for easier visibility during approach and also to accommodate flare before touchdown.
If you watch youtube videos (BMS or RL) it seems almost no Viper drivers fly approach at 13° AOA. To do that, you really have to manage the throttle aggressively when you flare, else you fall onto the runway, hard, tail-first. (I have a hard time with it in BMS, anyway.)
Flying approach around 11° AOA (FPM at top of the staple) gives your jet a little extra controllability, and energy that you can bleed off during the flare.
Ideally touchdown happens with fpm in middle of staple, around 13° AOA, but it’s still not really “on-speed” because your jet is likely still decelerating at that point – not at equilibrium at 13° AOA.
From what I’ve read, the Viper Indexer circle is lit when the FPM is at the top of the Bracket. If you put the FPM in the center of the Bracket you should be seeing something other than the circle lit, and if you put the FPM inside the Bracket and watch the Indexer you’ll see them telling you two distinctly opposing things to do - this bothers the CRAP out of me because I’ve spent a LOT of time watching Navy Indexers and Brackets. I also agree that RL Viper drivers don’t seem to operate the way I recall reading in “the book”, but this is why they call it “airmanship”. And you can always tell a Navy driver in a Viper just by watching the Indexer and seeing the circle lit all the way to the deck - that’s the Navy way!
I also doubt many RL drivers actually flare the jet, at least not in the way a GA/prop pilot thinks of…could be wrong about that, but that’s not the way Navy guys do it and not the way I do it. I’ve described a “Navy flare” before, and I learned how to do it from RL Navy Test/Aggressor Pilots - it also works for the Viper, and it’s the only way I can get the thing on the ground without busting the gear off it. It has to do with how the jet behaves when flying a power approach, and how that actually works - you can control your sink rate with power, and once you learn how to judge your decent and squeek on a bit of power to arrest sink rate just prior to touchdown instead of pointing your nose, you’ll find this works very effectively. But you have to practice the technique to get the hang of it.
The reason Navy pilots operate this way is because of the danger of inflight engagement of a wire if they change the jet’s attitude by flaring during landing - did that once in the RL T-45A Trainer and died spectacularly as a result. Navy gear are designed to withstand “just driving the jet in” down the Velocity Vector without flaring, unlike USAF gear. But the power application technique will still work with a USAF (or any) jet.
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I mean, using power to control rate of descent is not an unusual concept, specific to fighter jets. Adding power in the flare likewise, not uncommon even for GA drivers. If you want to fly the viper in at 8 degrees AoA you could do that, but you will be very fast…
If you are between 11 and 13 degrees AoA you are on speed by the book, and on speed by the bracket, so its a little odd to hear that you think that’s too fast.
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Yes - and this is the problem in trying to use the Bracket re: a Hornet. From “the book”:
“The top of the HUD AOA bracket indicates 11° AOA and the bottom mark of the HUD AOA bracket indicates 15° AOA. The bracket therefore corresponds to 5° AOA: from 11 (top) to 15° (bottom).”
On speed AOA for the Hornet is 8.1 AOA…which means if you try to use the Viper Bracket you are going to be slow at either end of it in a Hornet. So you are better off just relying on the Indexer…IF the flight model and the Indexer are operating properly/correctly.
Also - note that if you are at 11 units you should be fast (raise the nose and pull the throttle), and if you are at 15 units you should be slow (lower the nose and push the throttle) for the Viper…which is not what the Indexer is going to reflect. And that is why I keep saying the Bracket/Indexer is “backwards” in the Viper - in a RL Hornet the top of the Bracket corresponds to the top of the Indexer, and the bottom of the Bracket corresponds to the bottom of the Indexer.
So ignore the Bracket if you are flying the Hornet. It’s only going to screw you up…if all else is correct.
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I think this is academic – even if you do the trick I mentioned earlier of renaming the F-18 CkptArt subfolders, to fly the Hornet using Viper cockpit – you still get the Hornet-specific HUD elements implemented in BMS, including the E-bracket with midpoint at 8.1.
And (pleasantly surprised) even the indexer lights have the five-way indicators, with orange circle == 8.1
Maybe it used to be different? But in 4.35.x I don’t know any way to “fly the Hornet” using the Viper’s AOA bracket.
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Navy gear are designed to withstand “just driving the jet in” down the Velocity Vector without flaring, unlike USAF gear.
On this topic … do you happen to know target range for ft/min descent rate at touchdown? (I suppose it may vary by gross-weight…?)
One source I read, talked about flying carrier approach with a target descent rate … and 8.1 AOA, so the exact glide-slope and nose-angle attitude are determined from that.
It used 500 ft/min as an example, but I couldn’t find anything more precise or authoratative.
Trying for 500 ft/min in the Hornet BMS is a pretty shallow glideslope, about -2°. The robo-LSO in BMS seems not happy with me being that low.
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On this topic … do you happen to know target range for ft/min descent rate at touchdown? (I suppose it may vary by gross-weight…?)
One source I read, talked about flying carrier approach with a target descent rate … and 8.1 AOA, so the exact glide-slope and nose-angle attitude are determined from that.
It used 500 ft/min as an example, but I couldn’t find anything more precise or authoratative.
Trying for 500 ft/min in the Hornet BMS is a pretty shallow glideslope, about -2°. The robo-LSO in BMS seems not happy with me being that low.
I know that when I got to fly the Super from the back seat my pilot touched us down at 800 ft/min and it was smooth as silk.
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I think this is academic – even if you do the trick I mentioned earlier of renaming the F-18 CkptArt subfolders, to fly the Hornet using Viper cockpit – you still get the Hornet-specific HUD elements implemented in BMS, including the E-bracket with midpoint at 8.1.
And (pleasantly surprised) even the indexer lights have the five-way indicators, with orange circle == 8.1
Maybe it used to be different? But in 4.35.x I don’t know any way to “fly the Hornet” using the Viper’s AOA bracket.
…when you do this, do you get an “E” Bracket, or a “[” Bracket?
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…when you do this, do you get an “E” Bracket, or a “[” Bracket?[/QUOTE]
the E-bracket that moves relative to the FPM
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I know that when I got to fly the Super from the back seat my pilot touched us down at 800 ft/min and it was smooth as silk.
Cool, yeah that feels much more “comfortable” in BMS as well.
The shock absorbers must be amazing works of engineering.
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the E-bracket that moves relative to the FPM
That’s better looking…there are still a number of things wrong with the symbology, though. BTW - when you trim, how do you know you’ve trimmed to 8.1 AOA? It should be presented in the HUD as long as you are actuating the Trim switch.
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Cool, yeah that feels much more “comfortable” in BMS as well.
The shock absorbers must be amazing works of engineering.
The Hornet landing gear are real feats of engineering. I’m told the design was actually inspired by the mechanics of insect legs, and if you look as the original gear on the YF-17 and compare you’ll see they are a long way from the “usual” USAF design element, or even simple trailing link gear seen on other aircraft.
Super Hornet gear are even sturdier, and somewhat less complex - the differences between a Legacy Hornet and a Super Hornet are subtle, until you stand in between the two of them side by side…first impression being how much bigger a Super Hornet is.
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That’s better looking…there are still a number of things wrong with the symbology, though. BTW - when you trim, how do you know you’ve trimmed to 8.1 AOA? It should be presented in the HUD as long as you are actuating the Trim switch.
Yeah that’s why I originally switched over to Viper pit, to be able to see the trim indicators. Not that it’s particularly meaningful, if it’s bound to FLCS target-AOA, vs physical position of elevators. I just needed to be able to see what the heck I was doing.
I opened https://bmsbugs.blu3wolf.com/view.php?id=195 to track the missing ATC indicator on the HUD. If you know what the HUD symbology for target AOA-trim looks like, perhaps you can add a comment there…
In practice (for BMS) the target AOA-trim is re-initialized whenever you change flaps switch (even just going from Full to Half or vice versa) so I just gradually nudge the stick or throttle in the right direction, until the FPM touches the middle of the E-bracket, then hit my keybd binding for F-18 flaps.
I don’t think that’s right (in RL) but it works…
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Yeah that’s why I originally switched over to Viper pit, to be able to see the trim indicators. Not that it’s particularly meaningful, if it’s bound to FLCS target-AOA, vs physical position of elevators. I just needed to be able to see what the heck I was doing.
I opened https://bmsbugs.blu3wolf.com/view.php?id=195 to track the missing ATC indicator on the HUD. If you know what the HUD symbology for target AOA-trim looks like, perhaps you can add a comment there…
In practice (for BMS) the target AOA-trim is re-initialized whenever you change flaps switch (even just going from Full to Half or vice versa) so I just gradually nudge the stick or throttle in the right direction, until the FPM touches the middle of the E-bracket, then hit my keybd binding for F-18 flaps.
I don’t think that’s right (in RL) but it works…
Yo are 100% correct - the RL jet does NOT work that way…it holds the Trim you set and does nothing until you get back to Weight On Wheels. Then the gains reset and Trim neutralizes - which means that you have to manually reset 8.1 AOA Trim while on downwind after each bounce.
In general, the lower left side of the HUD is reserved for flight information, and the lower right for NAV information - in the RL jet the Trim setting appears in the lower left part of the HUD while you are actuating the Trim switch - a real number pops up, then it is removed. You bump this number to 8.1. And yeah - I think 800 FPM is nominal sink rate…but I’ll look it up.
This is a real good video of landing a Hornet aboard the CV, with day and night examples. But I think they are actually in a Reject mode and not full symbology. You’ll not that they keep talking about hawking AOA, when really what they mean is on speed - AOA is not displayed on the HUD until they are on deck! Once they Trim to 8.1 they are essentially at 8.1 as long as they are on speed. Also note the night landing are being done using ACLS and they are coupled to the needles…for at least some of the approaches - most pilots tell me they don’t really like doing coupled approaches and prefer to fly themselves. But note what the REAL Hornet HUD looks like, even though it’s in REJ 1 or 2.
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Yeah that’s why I originally switched over to Viper pit, to be able to see the trim indicators. Not that it’s particularly meaningful, if it’s bound to FLCS target-AOA, vs physical position of elevators. I just needed to be able to see what the heck I was doing.
I opened https://bmsbugs.blu3wolf.com/view.php?id=195 to track the missing ATC indicator on the HUD. If you know what the HUD symbology for target AOA-trim looks like, perhaps you can add a comment there…
In practice (for BMS) the target AOA-trim is re-initialized whenever you change flaps switch (even just going from Full to Half or vice versa) so I just gradually nudge the stick or throttle in the right direction, until the FPM touches the middle of the E-bracket, then hit my keybd binding for F-18 flaps.
I don’t think that’s right (in RL) but it works…
Hi, Airtex,
Here’s a couple of things I hope will help.- I get the trim panels in the “Mafia Pit” by extracting them with MFDE
- I assume you’re flying the Hornet, and not the Rhino. In the Art>1799>ckptart.dat there is cockpithudmodel 1620; In the Viper (CM-50, to be exact) the hudmodel is 4. I have not tried this , but I wonder if you can put a Hornet HUD in your Viper pit.
- Stevie, has given the input on the real jets, obviously, the BMS -18’s are different. In BMS I can tell you I don’t use the trim panels in landings. In fact, I extract them only to confirm take-off trim. Then during landings I just get the on-speed “donut” on the indexer and away we go.
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Here’s a few more HUD vids from Hornets landing on the CV. The small number above the Altitude box is Rate of Climb/Descent and if you watch, it looks like these guys are hitting the deck pretty consistently at an 1100 FPM sink rate -
I’ll throw a Super into the mix just for comparison - much cleaner video, same 1100 FPM touch down -
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Here’s a few more HUD vids from Hornets landing on the CV.
Awesome, thanks. I tried searching youtube but was getting too many DCS hits and getting frustrated … lol
Yeah BMS has the vvi number above the altimeter number … seems like it must be an important gauge, for landing. Although in BMS it “floats” with FPM when gear is down, so sometimes goes behind the altitude and is unreadable… pretty sure that must be a bug.
I’ll try some traps at 1100 fpm. That should be ~4.5° glideslope, which sounds pretty “comfortable” … in the “easy to look down and see the wires” sense.
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Here’s a few more HUD vids from Hornets landing on the CV.
In the night landing, and also the Rhino … it almost looks as if they bunt the nose down a bit before touchdown. (Opposite of a flare!)
Hard to say … there’s some lag in the FPM (flight path marker) and vvi and radar alt etc… so maybe it’s the result of wheels/hook first touching down.
But it certainly seems like vvi goes from ~850 to ~1100 in the brief moment before touchdown.
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The “bunt” is more of a result of the nose gear compression on deck impact and not a flight control input…remember the mains hit the deck first and then the nose sort of slams the deck - and as I’ve said before, the nose gear is “pretty spongy” - and the wire runs out. Also - the correct term for the Hornet is “Velocity Vector” and not “Flight Path Marker”.
I’m also not completely sure that the VV vs the FPM are actually showing you the same, identical thing…a Hornet VV has a bit more “float” in it than the Viper’s FPM, as far as BMS goes. It’s yet another subtlety, but they “feel” different to me. Pretty sure this has to do with the differing approach to Flight Controls implementation in each - including the lack of any AOA limiting in the Hornet. So I don’t mix them up.
Yes, there is some lag in the data in places - except for the RADALT…the RADALT is spot on all the time, but bear in mind that on approach the RADALT transitions from reading height above the wave tops to height above the round-down at some point. Also - the Air Data systems in a Hornet vs a Super Hornet are not the same…or even similar.
Also - you shouldn’t actually be looking for the wires ("spotting the deck)…you should be flying on speed and hitting the numbers around the horn to the groove. Something it took me a bit to learn from LSOs is that the LSO is not trying to fly your airplane into the wires - he’s actually trying to fly your hook shoe into the wires…and this is why the lens is reset every pass IAW type aircraft and GWT - each jet has a specified hook to Eye distance, and the lens is adjusted based on that distance. This is what gives you an ability to still get home even if your cockpit and HUD are blank. The arresting gear is also set for engagement GWT and speed.
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VV => vertical velocity, or velocity vector
FPM => feet per minute, or flight path markercould it get any more confusing! lol
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…unfortunately, yes. I have a couple volumes containing nothing but acronyms on my desk at work!