3D Cities for Falcon…
-
I lost between line. Are we speakin about practical appliactions? Atogenerated (?) cities –-> DB import —> map/campaign changes —> Funcitonal new objects?
Hmmm the idea is to create the cities in 3d. I don’t want to change the ground - terrain tiles at all. Many are maybe wrong but this is not my intention. For example with Aegean, that I had some close contact, it’s wrong in many places… I will not touch them. I just want to create and put the 3d object cities.
With this tool u can in a snap of the fingers create a 3d city. The potential is vast, from real real city build up to look alike the city. You create the general roads and it build the buildings between them automatically. U can choose if u want many or few height variation office - houses variation build contractions - warehouses areas etc etc… Than u can edit - modify group them and do whatever u like. For example where it builded a block of buildings there is a stadium in real. U just delete this block and put the stadium… done.
FPS wise my intention is to split the city to 5 to 15 maybe 20 areas. Every area will be an object, so bombing and hitting this will destroy the whole area… unrealistic as unrealistic is now where there is nothing where a whole city should be. Another trick every block and an object and in the middle a gap filled with a roof texture. that way in an angle u can’t tell the difference heights from surrounding buildings gives the impression of the 3d and from vertical top u can’t tell the 3d (only the shadows that will be there) but u will see roofs.
Also for the big cities there can be some 3d landmarks or real buildings… I already have some ready for my hometown (Thessaloniki). When I get there I will first create space for them build the blocks automatically with GhostTown and then import my 3d models. Also could be made specific target buildings inside the city… Like TV-Radio stations Factories and warehouses military admin buildings whatever u name it…
The hard thing I believe was the ability to easily create a city. With this tool it’s doable. The rest is on our hands and on the GFX engine potential and find the balance between them.
Also with this, high detail city tiles could be erased and dev’s gain them for other areas as they have the 4096 limitation. Also current ones could be used to fill the gaps between the 3d buildings… but not all…
As I said earlier I will respect the Falcon Paths so that we can see the units pass from the city streets. I’m in the testing and learning phase now. Ammramm said every building must be an object well I agree but the workload for this is enormous and in my logic pointless. A city would take more than a year to build up and integrate it to falcon… not to speak that the Database will get way heavier also as the gfx load.
So one thought is one real city block to become one Falcon building.
The roads:
1st priority are the Falcon paths than the real city major roads. Small roads will be auto created by 3dstudio. Also lot’s of parks and vacant areas to reduce the GFX load as match as possible and find a balance between them.Also hierarchy should go like:
*Per Country (Not per theater)
a. Cities
b. Villages
c. Other sites1. 10 larger towns of the country as real as they can. I mean the road structure and elevations…
2. Major Airbases surroundings and nearby cities or villages in high detail. When I say high detail I don’t mean the actual real buildings but the general structure and plurality of buildings in the area.
3. Rest of the cities with ready blocks (not custom for the city)
4. Villages all by ready blocks. Not all the same but in variation…So there must be done and some ready variation blocks per country… Central Europe cities have other look than Greece… Korea other than Israel Also Egypt other than Israel… so I believe I summed it up. Those are the first thought I have on the F.B.B. Project…
All those in the talks till now… cause only Falcon will tell us if it will accept it or spit on me… :lol:
I hope I covered u…
Question here… If I have the buildings covering full the area of 16 tiles if I remove them (as they don’t show) would that gain FPS wise or is insignificant?
-
If I remember correctly,
Gots to keep the roads simple, extremely important while in the urban areas. From what I understand, troops will always move to the center of a tile before going on to the next tile. They’ll also only enter/exit at center points of the tiles. I know it kills the splendid curved roads and such, but it’ll kill immersion even more when you come across troops in urban areas that are no where near the roads, tanks just mowing over people’s lawns and decorations, lol. So, keep it straight, that way people can still find tanks that are travelling through the cities.
example:
That also means you’ll need someone to clean up your paths on the tiles that you create, I’m sure someone would be willing to help ya out there.
Note: my red lines may not be dead center, just threw them in quickly for demonstration purpose only.If you need a reference for 3ds, than just create an image with lines that go through the centers, 1000 x 1000 image would give you 1 meter per pixel on a plane that is also 1000 x 1000 meters in 3ds. A road is typically what? A quick search yields about 3.5m per lane on average; so 7m for a two lane road or 7 pixels on your 1000 x 1000. Want to keep it simple to give some space that may include wider shoulders or sidewalks, extend it out to 10m perhaps.
About units of measurement, I always use meters in 3ds Max, that’s just the standard if ya ask me. Computers don’t like fractions or division, therefore, the imperial system will never be ideal for computer related calculations.
Lastly, if your scaling stuff in 3ds, use “Reset XForm” (found under the hammer icon) when your satisfied with your scaling.
Now, what about the transition tiles; the way I see it, you need a set of 15 different tiles, than, you’ll need a set of tiles with roads on them too! That’s another set, let’s see how many for each density …. straight through in each direction (4), a cross (5), a T in each direction is 4 so (9), and then another set of 4 for bridges (13), oh that reminds me, you’ll need some with rivers in them too which is another 4 in each direction which totals:
17 tiles for roads, rivers and bridges
15 tiles for your transitions and standard blocksgiving you a total of 32 tiles need for creating generic city’s. Here’s an example of the very basic shapes that 99% of falcon’s terrain is based on, boring yes, but as you can see it’s done this way for simplicity!
Generic Transition Tiles:
If you followed your other approach of trying to match GEarth shapes than you would never finish this project. This approach is more realistic; the grid represents the tiles, and yes there’s duplicates and the road/river tiles are not drawn on this sample image but it’s just to give you an idea.
And all of this is done without considering the coastline! Which would give you yet more tiles to do.
Creating the buildings in 3ds is the easy part; it’s actually implementing the concept into falcon that’s going to be time consuming. It’s easy to model and instance objects in 3ds and make renders of what you’d like to see in game but actually doing it in game is an entirely different story. None the less, I would love to see ya do it, and like said, I’m willing to help you texture if needed.
The libya theater uses more transition tiles but as you can tell, that theater is taking an extremely long time partially due to that.
-
@RAM22:
What thing to what thing??
LOL
RAM22
2.48 is the latest?
-
I see the approach that you want to take.
Large models to cover larger areas, while your idea that it won’t hinder performance … not true at all.
You’ll still be using just as many tri’s as would if you imported single buildings. The only simplification that you’d be doing is creating one large hit box. Which, I personally am not for. The cost of calculating hit boxes is negligible if falcon is coded properly. Falcon should already have a system in place for hit boxes that encases groups of objects along with their respective hit box that doesn’t get calculated unless something gets close enough that’s programming 101, lol.
It’s the dynamic meshes that add up when calculating collisions. Instancing should also be in place in falcon, so using the same types of buildings to fill in the city should cost less, as apposed to building a complicated mesh as your proposing.
Isn’t it DCS and FC or Lock on that has trees that you can fly through?? That to me was a big killer in terms of immersion. What’s the point of having an object in the 3d world that you cannot interact with? Or buildings that you can fly through, or in this case buildings that will make you explode without even touching them.
But these are some of the reasons why I won’t do anything except texture’s for falcon, I don’t know how falcon is coded or what what it’s capable of and I personally do not care to know. There’s far too many programmers that have touched falcons exe, and unless someone commented it thoroughly, it’s more than likely fubar.
Come to think of it, if you want to go the large model route, perhaps you should look into how the air bases are modeled for falcon. There’s gotta be some better info there for ya since I believe those are imported as one large group of models.
-
I will not create tiles. Only 3dojects. Not even road tiles nor transition ones.
For starters. To give u an idea, how are the runways? they are 3d objects simple. Same here.
Elevation? well I’ll see when I get there… :lol:
If not working… roads will take a hike and will leave it as is… afterall seeing the roads between all those buildings will be way difficult… as u said the road will be 7 pixels???.. lolthanx for the info.
-
-
Come to think of it, if you want to go the large model route, perhaps you should look into how the air bases are modeled for falcon. There’s gotta be some better info there for ya since I believe those are imported as one large group of models.
Bullseye… that was what started me with this idea years ago… I just didn’t had the knowledge and the tools. Know I have the tool. The knowledge is a matter of time and a matter of good friends helping out here…
-
I believe it looks ok… The feel not that it’s perfect…
and the real for reference:Hi Arty hows it going?
Some Encouragement!
If you can make it look like that it would be AWESOME!
Keep at it, don’t give up and enjoy the process, also you will be thanked a million times sooon!
This is the way THEATERS should look adding F.L.A.R.E process to it, moving forward!
NEW F4 LOOK, right, keep the “STANDARDS HIGH”! M8 its looking fantastic!
Now all we need is “NEW Ground Structure Models” in DATABASE! Delete Falcon 3.0 ones … PLEASE!;)
Thanks ARTY all the best…… 2013 get Ready!
Keep the FAITH…GENTS!
ARTY CLEAR your INBOX I try to PM you its FULL.
PS:- Please … Support the effort, “THANK”…the first post!
PM or post a reply in thread to Arty or BMARTINS if you have something to contribute!
Long Live F4!
Cheers,
:drink:
-
As I was told Falcon exporter can’t handle such designs - and so many textures…
Cemil hooked up with me to help maybe he knows the full way but I don’t really see it yet.
It must be 10 textures total per export… lol this is strange. But besides that the 3d object should be exported without textures.
Well not that encouraging I would say… Have in mind I’m a newb.
I selected a small area from the town and after export I got the F-16 pit switches in OGLLOD… lol I went HUH??? I builded a building not a pit… Probably there is a connection between them that I don’t know of.To overcome the 10 textures limitation I exported the textures so to be combined and than reapply it as one to the same object… But instead it gave me 324 files. one per side per building… lol So how do I combine them to one and than put it back to 3ds to see if it works ok?
Till that I will have them naked and see how it goes for starters…
Yeap spirit is high those are expected many more will come too I’m sure… Lights - elevations etc…
-
As I was told Falcon exporter can’t handle such designs - and so many textures…
Cemil hooked up with me to help maybe he knows the full way but I don’t really see it yet.
It must be 10 textures total per export… lol this is strange. But besides that the 3d object should be exported without textures.
Well not that encouraging I would say… Have in mind I’m a newb.
I selected a small area from the town and after export I got the F-16 pit switches in OGLLOD… lol I went HUH??? I builded a building not a pit… Probably there is a connection between them that I don’t know of.To overcome the 10 textures limitation I exported the textures so to be combined and than reapply it as one to the same object… But instead it gave me 324 files. one per side per building… lol So how do I combine them to one and than put it back to 3ds to see if it works ok?
Till that I will have them naked and see how it goes for starters…
Yeap spirit is high those are expected many more will come too I’m sure… Lights - elevations etc…
Hi Arty thanks for reporting in.
Well if your a noob what am I?
Dont answer scared to find out ……LoL
Well I guess from a managerial project management perspective… what are the contingencies?
- Work arounds
- Solutions
- Third party tools
- Break it down further in steps
- Modifying code to accept more than 10 textures
- Use of plugins
- Source expert opinions from the creator and designer of eg. 3DSMAX…give them a call email the problem maybe they offer a solution
- Speak to other modelers game developers maybe they developed third party tools they can share.
These are just some that I can think of and I dont know anything about code or developing games etc learning by reading posts like yours.
Maybe, slow down take a break…write it all down on paper…take some thought do some research then experiment again until something works.
If you write me a full report not that it would mean much to me I can and will get you some solutions by speaking to others as explained above.
Point is we or BMS team got to do something about Theaters make them look modern and 3D with new ground structures mentioned many times now in thread.
Its time to just get it done get more help if needed I personally will say thanks there Cemil for offering to help here, I am an F4 user in this community among many who want the dream come true… I visually see the above pics of a City and Suburban areas in GUAM Theater as eg. with a collection of new ground structures to be located and spread thru the map it would look awesome and new look not photo realistic but real enough being 3D to really enjoy a modern F4.
Well fingers crossed it will happen…keep at it…let me know if you want me to follow up resources for solutions
I wish I was an expert at this…I would love to change things and modernize F4…damn I am in the wrong industry…oh well only one life to live.
So I would say to all live it well! LoL…
Keep the Faith…F4 community get ready 2013!
PS:- Please … Support the effort, “THANK”…the first post!
PM or post a reply in thread to Arty or BMARTINS if you have something to contribute!
Long Live F4!
Cheers,
:drink:
-
Thx. Arty, just keep showing your results. :headb:
-
Just an idea guys, is not easier create new lods and give them coordinates?
a completly newbie about this thread
if it is a stupid idea …nevermind…
cheers
dema
-
Just an idea guys, is not easier create new lods and give them coordinates?
a completly newbie about this thread
if it is a stupid idea …nevermind…
cheers
dema
Hi yeah there must be away to get it done!
Keep the dream/faith…… at least its getting a look at and experimented with … which really is a must for BMS F4 looking forward, right add FLARE…Done!
New 3D Falcon Terrain and New Ground Structures …Please!
FLIGHT Sims are no longer FLAT!..neither should F4 be!
But we wait with anticipation!:p Lets see what happens…
PS:- Please … Support the effort, “THANK”…the first post!
PM or post a reply in thread to Arty or BMARTINS if you have something to contribute!
Long Live F4!
-
How many triangles is that scene/model?
-
How many triangles is that scene/model?
Why?
Most Cities have so many odd shapes, its the way land developers cut up land and sell it to builders and investors……spend a few hours on google earth bud you soon learn and see for yourself.
V - Shaped buidling’s are normal in major capitals!
Point is "FALCON…NEEDS…“3D Cities and New Ground Structures”…Looking Forward, Right…
You got to encourage change or else whats the point of messing with F4……at all!
You have Allied Falcon For that!
Keep the faith…stay positive!
NEW FALCON is Coming…
PS:- Please … Support the effort, “THANK”…the first post!
PM or post a reply in thread to Arty or BMARTINS if you have something to contribute!
Long Live F4!
-
I’m curious to know the procedure, programs you use, don t leave Arty alone
it should be a step forward to enter in simulators history…
thanks Skynight!
-
I’m curious to know the procedure, programs you use, don t leave Arty alone
it should be a step forward to enter in simulators history…
thanks Skynight!
Hi give thanks to ARTY, CEMIL and Theater DEVS…not me I’m no one here…well very small part…LoL
I just would like this to happen here to encourage help in small ways open up discussion get people thinking invite talent with those who do have skills and knowledge.
If it can look as good as those PICS above all good with new ground structures in the database ie. Oil Refinery Plants and then add them into campaigns for tactical targets to win in Campaigns etc etc
I mean “New Falcon” lets get it on, support ARTY and this project! Right!
Or else respectfully speaking, “Lets All”;) Be HONEST and say OLD CODE F4 is only a dream, it will never amount to anything its all CRAP from the HORSE’S END the SIZE of EVEREST…and CLOSE the FORUM, Yeah!
I have XPlane10, DCS etc as option… which I own copies!
So point is, I dont want that or the end of Falcon… So lets support the cause! Get with it!
How do crap ass concerns and personal swipes or comments help anything…go to other forums spill your milk there if you like…;)
But I rather encourage the cause!
So if you want F4 to improve … Lets all nut it out some how…patience and faith… stay and be Positive.
We all want this yeah…I will spend hrs talking to people if required until we find a solution there might need be some code changes, well get it done, as long as we all end up with new falcon… I believe … I’m hooked now to late …FALCONIZED…LoL
PS.-Negative comments dont help the cause guys mind your manners, be supportive when visiting this thread.
Please … Support the effort, “THANK”…the first post!
PM or post a reply in thread to Arty or BMARTINS if you have something to contribute!
Long Live F4!
Cheers,:drink:
-
I’m with you Skynight.
As you see in many threads anyway there are good skinners and good modders. I think honestly this version of falcon is the best we have never seen and next will be better than this one. I don’t see the end yet. I’m not a developer or a modder but I fly with falcon and it’s a passion. When something I don’t like I try to change, always if it’s better.Revolutions sometimes have their compromises. Be positive always. That’s a way to live. -
Time as been short and I have made some tries in the building set-up still my opinion about ghost-town is that the software is way from finished and many of the stuff we see in videos are not implemented. Can you post your building set up screen so I can match it with mine at home Arty? I am also testing layers so roads are more noticeable and we can use textures already made not overlapping the all city above work that is already made.
-
Just a sec guys… I can’t catch up… lol
Give me some time to focus and complete something simple first than we talk. I will have u all informed in every steπ… but first I have to master the thing in a satisfactory level and than whatever… some are eager to help well once I get something I will post the whole procedure.I just overcome the textures problem… I have to attach them first before export and texture render. That way the city block or area than now is 100 or more objects becomes one object. and the texture outcome is one as the dds skins we see for airplanes and etc…
I must find an easy way to do the attach procedure so that it will not take that long. Somewhere I saw a guide about it I believe… hell searching again… lol
So back to positives… one step forward… but one step back… export plugin gives me a crash to 3dstudio max where yesterday shimmed to work ok… lol So one small step back…
BMARTINS yes the GhostTown ain’t finished yet thus beta. But it’s workable and very productive instead of doing the whole ςork one by one… For me it’s 1.000 to 1.000.000 times faster ( again: FOR ME ).
when u say to post my building setup screen from Ghost Town u mean?
Not something special mostly random settings… but close to what I have in mind.