Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...
-
@efsixteenblock50 said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
Speaking of HOTAS…
Something I’ve been wondering about - what with the BMS culture of striving for realism, I would think that since, for example, the Warthog stick is pretty much identical to the real stick in the F-16, there wouldn’t be all this emphasis on customization - why don’t people program it to work just like it does in the real thing?I’m getting one BTW. And the throttle. And TrackIR!
My journey to Incel-ism is nearly complete!Because even for those that have a Cougar HOTAS or a Warthog HOTAS, we don’t have the entire cockpit to hand so we map stuff on shifted layers for easier access. I have a Warthog and most of what’s in the true HOTAS is mapped to the same way, but I have extra stuff like pausing/re-centre TrackIR, turn HMD on/off, turn NVG on/off, etc.
Obviously for those with different stick setups, the need for customisation is even greater.
@hoover said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
Before you spend (some would say “waste” ) a few hundred hard earned bucks on a ridiculously overpriced TrackIR make sure to check out some alternatives like DelanClip / ps eye camera /opentrack which work just as well as TrackIR, are of higher build quality
TrackIR just works. The software is quite easy to work with. The build quality is excellent. What you are referring to is the Track Clip Pro which is quite poorly built for the price, I will agree. But one can always use the reflective clips. Or buy a third-party LED emitter. More expensive? Maybe, but given the hours used over time (mine is 12 years old!), will you really notice a £0.0021 per hour cost vs a £0.0018 per hour cost?
@MaxWaldorf said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
Just invest in VR headset…
It should be worth your investment soon
You tease!!
-
@Vyper37 said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
Does one need just the headset or the whole kit ? How do you glance at the “real” controls ( keyboard, mouse, hotas) when wearing one ?
Replica pit works great! Or depending on the headset, peeking through the nose gap. Passthrough isn’t really useable at the moment. Take a look at PointCTRL though. It’s awesome!
-
@efsixteenblock50 said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
My journey to Incel-ism is nearly complete!
Wait until I tell you about my level-50 multiclass Barbarian/Rogue!!
If you think this is bad, take a look at the guys over at ViperPits! Those are some dedicated guys!!
-
@efsixteenblock50 said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
Speaking of HOTAS…
Something I’ve been wondering about … why don’t people program it to work just like it does in the real thing?They can and do … some people, anyway. TM WH Flight stick, most certainly, is nearly an exact match for the F-16’s stick, and buttons can be mapped 1:1 … but on top of that, using shift-states, addition controls can be added for each button or HAT/POV … that way some sim-controls can be at the fingertips, too, like Pause or Center TrackIR commands.
Personally, I keep my Pause and Center commands for TrackIR on voice command through my VoiceAttack profile(s).
@efsixteenblock50 said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
I’m getting one BTW. And the throttle. And TrackIR!
My journey to Incel-ism is nearly complete!…nearly…
psst… VOICEATTACK!
edit: also worth checking out, Buttkicker Gamer 2 and Andre’s SimShaker Wings software - he’s coded every event into “feels” down to the cracks in the taxiway, bumps on the tarmac, released stores, and even speedbrake - I don’t think I could go back to “looking” for the indicator to know if my speedbrake is open and/or how much.
-
@SemlerPDX Just can’t help but promote your work eh??
Just kidding!! I cannot recommend this enough @efsixteenblock50!! Go get Voice Attack and try @SemlerPDX’s profile!@SemlerPDX said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
edit: also worth checking out, Buttkicker Gamer 2 and Andre’s SimShaker Wings software - he’s coded every event into “feels” down to the cracks in the taxiway, bumps on the tarmac, released stores, and even speedbrake - I don’t think I could go back to “looking” for the indicator to know if my speedbrake is open and/or how much.
Why Buttkicker instead of the JetSeat? And just as a weird question, has anyone tried both?
-
“TrackIR just works. The software is quite easy to work with.”
Guess what, so does Opentrack The setup really has come a long way over the last couple of years, as have the default curves that can be used with the DelanClip.
The only part that might need a bit of fiddling is installing the ps eye cam driver, but that’s also easy enough as a free alternative driver has become available. (Tomasz’ package might even include it if you buy the set from him, but I would need to check that).
Horses for courses I guess, as usual, I was simply pointing out a way to save a bunch of money if you’re willing to invest 20-30 minutes for the initial setup (like mounting the DelanClip on your headset) and maybe another half an hour for fine tuning the default curves (which are already quite good).
Of course you’re correct about the long-term cost per day being ridiculously low in both cases, however that was not the point I was trying to make.
Cheers, Uwe
-
@Atlas said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
@SemlerPDX Just can’t help but promote your work eh??
lol
TBF, I didn’t mention my own work - there are several public BMS profiles for VoiceAttack in addition to my own, including JanJan’s awesome plugin & profile combo, among others…@Atlas said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
Why Buttkicker instead of the JetSeat? And just as a weird question, has anyone tried both?
Buttkicker is way more powerful, and attaches to the pole under the chair, and translates the LFE to the entire chair & my body. This thing could chatter my teeth if I turned it up.
Additionally, I sit in this very comfortable Office Master chair anytime I’m at my desk, would not want something sitting over it between my arse and the foam, or something I’d have to take off and put on anytime I want to game with haptic feedback. The Buttkicker cord is coiled (unplugged) under my chair, when I wanna use it, I just plug it into the other end hanging behind me. Ezy pzy.
Kindof expensive, but far less breakable than TIR, will last for 5-10 years easy. (my kit is ~7 yrs old now)
-
@hoover said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
Of course you’re correct about the long-term cost per day being ridiculously low in both cases, however that was not the point I was trying to make.
Just wanted to clarify that the higher build quality is not an issue for the camera itself. Other than that, it’s a Friday after a really shitty work week so let’s have some
@SemlerPDX said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
Buttkicker is way more powerful, and attaches to the pole under the chair, and translates the LFE to the entire chair & my body. This thing could chatter my teeth if I turned it up.
But only one point of contact vs the Jet Seat with 8 motors translating to 6 zones of vibration? I mean turning left has the left side vibrating, firing the gun just has some of the right side vibrating, and taxiing over the gaps in the taxiway and you’ll have vibrations first on the motors under your knee the under your butt… How does the Buttkicker do these things?
I do agree with you on the JetSeat stuff needing some improvements though. It’s actually my current project
-
@Atlas said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
@SemlerPDX Just can’t help but promote your work eh??
Just kidding!! I cannot recommend this enough @efsixteenblock50!! Go get Voice Attack and try @SemlerPDX’s profile!@SemlerPDX said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
edit: also worth checking out, Buttkicker Gamer 2 and Andre’s SimShaker Wings software - he’s coded every event into “feels” down to the cracks in the taxiway, bumps on the tarmac, released stores, and even speedbrake - I don’t think I could go back to “looking” for the indicator to know if my speedbrake is open and/or how much.
Why Buttkicker instead of the JetSeat? And just as a weird question, has anyone tried both?
I have both a JetSeat and Buttkicker, plus some small “bass pucks” on side stick arm rest, throttle wall, 2 on center stick mount, 2 on the floorboard in front of my rudder pedals where my heels rest. This gives me zone like the JetSeat/JetPad with SimShaker Wings. I agree that I prefer the JetSest over the Buttkicker, I rarely turn it on. It’s hard to find a level on it that doesn’t drown out the smaller but important effects with SimShaker Wings. It ranks with my tactile feedback system in amount that I actually turn it on:
- JetSeat- only fly without if something is wrong
- Bass pucks- anytime I’m not just doing a quick causal flight/test
- 3rd Space Vest (specifically setup for ONLY Gs feedback)- BFM/ACM focused flight or maybe a serious A2G mission where I want to feel the specific edge right before I over G the stores
- Buttkicker- mostly just there for the experiment but built a special mount into my cockpit seat for it so it stays
-
@Atlas said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
But only one point of contact vs the Jet Seat with 8 motors translating to 6 zones of vibration? I mean turning left has the left side vibrating, firing the gun just has some of the right side vibrating, and taxiing over the gaps in the taxiway and you’ll have vibrations first on the motors under your knee the under your butt… How does the Buttkicker do these things?
The “how” is easy: MAGIC!
And you may think I’m joking, but I am not. And I’m also not talking about mystical forces, but actual Magic principles that one would learn if they actively wanted to cease procreating with all humans and become a performer of this form of entertainment. “What the eyes see and the ears hear, the mind believes” … it’s all about misdirection. For the layman, it boils down to “just tricks”… but they work.
There is no stereo with a single unit attached to a pole, yet still, with the physical feedback and the visible & audible stimulus from the simulation on the computer, the mind completes the picture. Let’s not discount Andre’s work in this regard: using LFE like this Buttkicker Gamer 2 with solely the LFE sound channel going to the amplifier, it’s just dumb vibrations that even Main Menu Music could trigger… but with SimShaker Wings, the difference between the former is like being a blind person who is suddenly able to see for the first time.
-
@SemlerPDX said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
@Atlas said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
But only one point of contact vs the Jet Seat with 8 motors translating to 6 zones of vibration? I mean turning left has the left side vibrating, firing the gun just has some of the right side vibrating, and taxiing over the gaps in the taxiway and you’ll have vibrations first on the motors under your knee the under your butt… How does the Buttkicker do these things?
The “how” is easy: MAGIC!
And you may think I’m joking, but I am not. And I’m also not talking about mystical forces, but actual Magic principles that one would learn if they actively wanted to cease procreating with all humans and become a performer of this form of entertainment. “What the eyes see and the ears hear, the mind believes” … it’s all about misdirection. For the layman, it boils down to “just tricks”… but they work.
There is no stereo with a single unit attached to a pole, yet still, with the physical feedback and the visible & audible stimulus from the simulation on the computer, the mind completes the picture. Let’s not discount Andre’s work in this regard: using LFE like this Buttkicker Gamer 2 with solely the LFE sound channel going to the amplifier, it’s just dumb vibrations that even Main Menu Music could trigger… but with SimShaker Wings, the difference between the former is like being a blind person who is suddenly able to see for the first time.
@Atlas is using SimShaker Wings for the same purpose of only making events, not every sound play over the Buttkicker/JetSeat/Bass Transducers as you with the Buttkicker. But he is saying the JetSeat/JetPad gives you 6 zones.
Basically it’s one of those massage chair cushions that has USB that allows each motor to turn on when directed (has massage mode too) Imagine surround sound for your back and butt. So you can now feel things to the side or just in your back or in you bottom for more defined feel, not just one rumble (I also get multiple zone channels on my bass pucks). Buttkicker wins with overall power, it’s like that big car sub that you can hear from blocks away, but it shakes in it’s one location.
-
@Snake122 said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
@SemlerPDX said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
@Atlas said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
But only one point of contact vs the Jet Seat with 8 motors translating to 6 zones of vibration? I mean turning left has the left side vibrating, firing the gun just has some of the right side vibrating, and taxiing over the gaps in the taxiway and you’ll have vibrations first on the motors under your knee the under your butt… How does the Buttkicker do these things?
The “how” is easy: MAGIC!
And you may think I’m joking, but I am not. And I’m also not talking about mystical forces, but actual Magic principles that one would learn if they actively wanted to cease procreating with all humans and become a performer of this form of entertainment. “What the eyes see and the ears hear, the mind believes” … it’s all about misdirection. For the layman, it boils down to “just tricks”… but they work.
There is no stereo with a single unit attached to a pole, yet still, with the physical feedback and the visible & audible stimulus from the simulation on the computer, the mind completes the picture. Let’s not discount Andre’s work in this regard: using LFE like this Buttkicker Gamer 2 with solely the LFE sound channel going to the amplifier, it’s just dumb vibrations that even Main Menu Music could trigger… but with SimShaker Wings, the difference between the former is like being a blind person who is suddenly able to see for the first time.
@Atlas is using SimShaker Wings for the same purpose of only making events, not every sound play over the Buttkicker/JetSeat/Bass Transducers as you with the Buttkicker. But he is saying the JetSeat/JetPad gives you 6 zones.
Basically it’s one of those massage chair cushions that has USB that allows each motor to turn on when directed (has massage mode too) Imagine surround sound for your back and butt. So you can now feel things to the side or just in your back or in you bottom for more defined feel, not just one rumble (I also get multiple zone channels on my bass pucks). Buttkicker wins with overall power, it’s like that big car sub that you can hear from blocks away, but it shakes in it’s one location.
Copy that… I understand the construction of the JetSeat and pads, and was in consideration when I purchased my Buttkicker.
When racing using a force-feedback wheel like the G920, I can close my eyes and take my hands off the wheel, and feel the road - I certainly notice that the “feedback” is across my entire seat and body.
Once I open my eyes and place my hands back on the force-feedback wheel, the entire orchestra of sensations gets summed up by the brain, and as I see the car moving left, and feel a bump, my brain accurately places the location of the bump in 3D space regardless of whether I had not felt it more on the left side of my bottocks than my right, but centrally instead.
As far as the JetSeat and pads concept goes, I’ve never tried them to understand how different it would be to feel smaller vibrations in an array across left and right sides, higher or lower as coded for the events. While it might be an additional immersive layer to be able to feel it through tiny haptic points in the seat and seat back in addition to the entire chair, I can definitely say that even with a single point of contact and single transducer, Buttkicker is completely able to recreate very immersive and accurate feeling feedback thanks to SimShaker Wings (and SimShaker Wheels, ofc).
Even without SimShaker, it’s great for movies and music, as well. Like you said, like a big car sub - but luckily when wearing headphones, the rumbling can’t be heard more than a few meters outside my room with the door closed. I don’t let it clip and padded out all loose mechanical parts on this chair much like audio techs do to cars with subs.
-
@SemlerPDX said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
As far as the JetSeat and pads concept goes, I’ve never tried them to understand how different it would be to feel smaller vibrations in an array across left and right sides, higher or lower as coded for the events.
This is what I’m trying to do, but the other way around. I have 6 vibration zones, you only have 1. If you think that 1 zone is able to do magic, think what 6 zones can do. The JetSeat has a demo mode where it’ll play wave sounds and the waves “come” and the waves “go” along with the sound. Just as you’ve explained, the mind kind of fills in the gaps, but as I feel the vibrations go from my knees to my butt to my back and then slowly stop from my back then my butt then my knees, that gives a whole lot more nuance to the sound and immersion, and so the mind doesn’t have such a big gap to fill.
@Snake122 said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
- 3rd Space Vest (specifically setup for ONLY Gs feedback)- BFM/ACM focused flight or maybe a serious A2G mission where I want to feel the specific edge right before I over G the stores
More info on that please? Would love to be able to have some body pressure to “feel” the G’s as currently the seat vibrations aren’t quite enough and I think aren’t quite “correct” either. You could have vibrations but no G (ie, stalling, engine vibrations, etc.) or lotsa G but little or no vibration.
Seems like you use the JetSeat more often and the Buttkicker is just there but barely used?
-
@Atlas said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
@Snake122 said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
- 3rd Space Vest (specifically setup for ONLY Gs feedback)- BFM/ACM focused flight or maybe a serious A2G mission where I want to feel the specific edge right before I over G the stores
More info on that please? Would love to be able to have some body pressure to “feel” the G’s as currently the seat vibrations aren’t quite enough and I think aren’t quite “correct” either. You could have vibrations but no G (ie, stalling, engine vibrations, etc.) or lotsa G but little or no vibration.
Seems like you use the JetSeat more often and the Buttkicker is just there but barely used?
It’s an early haptic vest that has 8 pneumatic “fingers,” PS Cockpits supports it in BMS and I’ve written a really crude program for DCS. I have it setup to activate the lower back pair at around 5Gs, then the upper back pair at around 7Gs, and those values are adjustable. For negative Gs, top front of pair activate at around -.5Gs (simulates feeling the shoulder straps first, what I’ve always noticed negative G first IRL) then lower front pair at -1.5Gs. Requires a small air compressor that is included, but I’ve even moved away from it with a regular air brush compressor now. Compressor noise is part of why I don’t use it every time, also strapping in and out of it but when I have time, that gives a more fun detail. Overall, it gives a slightly uncomfortable pressure to know what’s going on with Gs. I believe it also has options for airbrakes and weapon release feedback too.
Yes, Buttkicker for me is not needed. JetPad turned up gives plenty of vibration, especially when the intense actions where it turns on all the zones. Buttkicker gets loud fast with my mostly wooden seat
-
@Snake122 air compressor? I was thinking it was a vibrating vest or something. Can you link me to what you’re using?
-
@Atlas hard to explain, but like I said, pneumatic “fingers”. When I learned it was pneumatic, I was thinking using it literally like a G Suit but those bladders are much bigger than the 3rd Space Vest. But a G Suit mode could be possible with the right support and unfolding the vest, but you would lose the negative G part and honestly, I think that is worth it not being a G Suit like thing.
It was one of the first haptic feedback vests and was designed to let a user playing FPSes (CoD2 is bundled and works with it) and was intended to let the players know what kind of damage they were receiving like getting shot or hit by a grenade, etc. Think more a point a little bigger than thumb size of pressure because it was making an impact simulation. The company’s website finally died recently apparently. There are a few reviews out there but not many of us have used them for flight sims. No one ever took me up on my software for DCS for it.
A “G Seat” with seatbelt tensioners would be my current choice if I was going to go for a tactile feedback system for fighters (even over a 6DOF motion platform), but the 3rd Space Vest, JetPad, and bass shakers give me most of what I would get then.
-
@Snake122 I tired searching for it but it’s no longer there. I’ve seen seatbelt tensioners using RC servos but these seem noisy to begin with.