When to engage defensive?
-
@Rouge1512 said in When to engage defansive?:
Technique A (vertical): half-barrel, vertical descent, pump righting at 17,000 - 15,000 feet (start at 30,000) or 12,000 feet (start at 25,000) until close to the ground, then snake (for safety with the 120 C, you can start snaking at the end of the descent). PC all the way, righting at 9g.
Technique B: third of a barrel (120°), turn nose down.- if right turn, continue turn until missile at 4 o’clock, then snake while continuing descent to 5000 feet or ground,
- if left turn, continue turn until missile at 8 o’clock then snake while continuing to descend to 5000 feet or ground.
There are many other distances depending on many other techniques, but with these two, which are the most basics, there’s no need for a glass of French red wine (which is why I no longer practice them).
There’s an important criterion missing: your own speed and the one of your enemy!
-
@Ogi135 - your question is phrased a bit off, in that if you are defensive, you should not be engaging - you should be looking for and deciding where your exit is, and if you have any ability to redefine the fight to your advantage; i.e. - dis-engaging, and only re-engaging when/as advantage presents.
In all cases, when shot at your first duty is to honor that shot and survive - sometimes this can be a dodge, sometimes it means running away…which is something I have a difficult time doing myself!
It’s a subtly different way of thinking…but it’s how you need to think.
-
@suhkoi69
You’re right.
Also both planes, if you consider that both are piloted by humans, are more than supersonic. For example, at 30,000 feet, starting from a cruising speed of mach 0.9, the PC is engaged at the latest when the distance to the adversary is 50 nm, the tanks being dropped in the 40 nm zone. The two aircraft should be approximately between mach 1.2 and mach 1.4.The attack therefore comes as no surprise and the speed is adjusted accordingly.
-
@Rouge1512 said in When to engage defensive?:
You’re right.
Also both planes, if you consider that both are piloted by humans, are more than supersonic. For example, at 30,000 feet, starting from a cruising speed of mach 0.9, the PC is engaged at the latest when the distance to the adversary is 50 nm, the tanks being dropped in the 40 nm zone. The two aircraft should be approximately between mach 1.2 and mach 1.4.
The attack therefore comes as no surprise and the speed is adjusted accordingly.if I’ve got any fuel left, I prefer to keep it and get to safety on the defensive at range MAR… or even fire at range MOR and get back on the offensive before reaching MAR and if the opponent goes on the defensive, I continue beyond MAR
In my opinion, there’s only one important thing to remember, and that’s the MAR of the opponent’s missile as a function of the shooter’s speed and his altitude.
-
@Rouge1512 - you NEVER want to approach a bogey at or above Mach 1.0. Reasons being:
-
they don’t call it “the speed of heat” for nothing, and the resultant airframe heating only makes you that much more vulnerable to a heat seeking missile. And there are long range ones out there…
-
the faster you are, the lesser your ability to turn (radius)…and a slower bogey is going to be able to turn inside of you. Best RL demo I’ve ever had on this is that I once got jumped by a friend flying an A-7 that recognized me on the radio when I was flying a Cessna 172…I out turned him all day long, until he finally left me alone.
-
-
Hello.
It’s all perfectly rational.
It’s what we all do most of the time, especially when there are several bandits. But if you go on the defensive at MAR distance and the bandit takes the risk of avoiding your missile without losing his lock on you, or by losing it for just a few seconds, you’ll find it difficult (if not impossible) to come back on the offensive, because he’ll fire an F3 every time you try to come back.
Finally, the MAR changes with practically every version of the BMS, as does the behaviour of missiles, but overall, it seems to me that the MAR given in the BMS-Threat-Guide is a little overestimated and that you can get closer if you have the speed to dodge, which requires you to have dropped your tanks.
The choices are always the same:
- choice 1: try to kill: get closer while moving fast to give more energy to the missiles in the hope of finishing quickly while having the necessary energy (while consuming a lot of fuel) to dodge. And it’s more effective against a plane that keeps those tanks and is slower
- choice 2: try to survive: keep your tanks, manoeuvre slower and fire from further away, respect the MAR … which means a longer battle in which another opponent may intervene … or a battle in which nobody has killed anybody.
-
Hello.
These two points are most true below 10/12 nautical miles.
But I think we’re talking about BVR combat, especially since in BMS (and even more so on Falcon Online, where we fight F16 vs F16), long-range infrared missiles don’t really exist. Even the MICA IR has reduced capabilities.
In the BMS Threat Guide, the F15 requires a higher MAR than the F16, even though the missile fired by these two aircraft is the same. The difference is explained by the higher speed of the F15. As Suhkoi69 noted, firing speed is important.
At least in BMS, without speed, you can’t do this (speed 1) or this (speed2) or even worse (a real horror, but it’s possible in 4.37) (speed3) (see link).
-
@Ogi135 that is the reason why TopGun exist. No offence Check manuals and tactics. It all depend on your speed, target speed, alt, heading…good luck
-
So,
In general you say turn cold as soon as possible and try to dodge their amraams. After you sure there is an advantage or they lost all their F3 missiles, then turn hot and engage offansive.
Especially learn MAR. But I was told to increase your speed above mach 1 so the energy that missile gains will help it to reach further, but I saw some entries talking like dont go above mach 1. I know these changes a lot from one situation to another. Generally which one is more effective?
BTW, thank you so much for your replies. Appreciated.
-
@Ogi135
Hi Ogi,
I’ve had instruction from a few people who I would consider highly qualified on this subject. One of the most important things I learned is that against a competent adversary you probably won’t be able to support your missile all the way to pitbull. Likewise, your adversary should probably follow the same advice. With some luck your missile might still find the bandit when it goes active. For PvP combat, BVR is a game of airspace control, not necessarily shooting the other guy down.For maximum kill probability, I recommend reading about the Rutowski climb. This article can get you started: https://www.engineeringpilot.com/post/how-to-climb-and-why
The basic idea is to spend as little time as possible between mach 0.9 and mach 1.1, where drag is highest. You want to pass through those airspeeds in a dive. If you’re not at mach 1.3 or higher when you launch your Aim-120 your opponent will be. -
@Ogi135 said in When to engage defensive?:
So,
In general you say turn cold as soon as possible and try to dodge their amraams. After you sure there is an advantage or they lost all their F3 missiles, then turn hot and engage offansive.
Especially learn MAR. But I was told to increase your speed above mach 1 so the energy that missile gains will help it to reach further, but I saw some entries talking like dont go above mach 1. I know these changes a lot from one situation to another. Generally which one is more effective?
BTW, thank you so much for your replies. Appreciated.Hello
I’ll give you my opinion in the case of BMS.
In version 4. 37 (apart from the implementation of jamming by the adversary, which requires special individual and collective techniques of both presentation and avoidance) whatever the altitude of engagement (and the altitude of engagement depends on the distance at which the shot is going to be fired), if the opponent has fired at the same time as you, if you cranck with the nose down sharply after firing, you ALWAYS have time to let your missile pass at least HPRF before starting the evasive manoeuvre (and make it a success) IF you are at the maximum speed you can reach at your firing altitude (and further than the distances I gave above).
In a 1 Vs 1 duel, for my part, I’m certain that it’s speed that counts and I don’t give a damn about the theoretical MAR because I’m capable of going much closer. (And with the jamming against an enemy who is directly in front, with his nose towards you, it is necessary to be at about 20 nm at least to shoot, whatever the altitude).
But I’m going to complicate the matter or perhaps simplify it by giving the tactical factor that allows you to choose.
What’s your mission?
If it’s a Sweep, then the aim is to kill the initial enemy as quickly as possible (usually the enemy CAP), and you have to give it your all with your flight to clear what’s above the target in 5 to 7 minutes at most. During these 5 to 7 minutes, your fuel and missiles evaporate. A Sweep doesn’t stay put.
If it’s a TARCAP or HAVCAP, then your mission is to protect the strickers and hold the area and prevent the opposing fighters from getting close enough to fire on the muds. You don’t have to kill them, just keep them at a distance long enough for the Muds to pass through. To keep this time, you have to save missiles and, above all, fuel, which means firing from further away, keeping the tanks, going slower, respecting the MAR, etc. -
@Rouge1512 - if you’re fighting Viper v Viper I guess that’s true…BUT: as the saying goes - “you fight like you train”.
So in RL, when a similar jet is employed in Training as Red Air, they are assumed and operated to RW scenarios, tactics, and armament…even when not strictly “true”.
-
@Rouge1512 MAR is not specific to the launch aircraft: it is only specific to the missile’s flight capabilities.
Indeed, shooting at the MAR will limit your offensive possibilities…but nothing excludes shooting before the MAR …at the DR or DOR for example …but only thing for defense to remember, it s the MAR: you will be sure to be safe
now MAR has to be defined on the basis of tests, and this value is not static, as it evolves according to the altitude and speed of the aggressor so that involves to calculate mentally the MAR in BVR fight
-
If what you say is right, and I have no reason to doubt it, then I don’t understand why there are different MARs for the F16 and the F15, both of which fire the same missile.
But perhaps the Vault can also write nonsense or more surely transcribe only BMS-specific restrictions/inconsistencies.
For example, the Rafale with the Meteor missile has a MAR of just 14 nautical miles, but the Eurofighter has a MAR of 56 nautical miles. -
@Rouge1512 said in When to engage defensive?:
@suhkoi69
If what you say is right, and I have no reason to doubt it, then I don’t understand why there are different MARs for the F16 and the F15, both of which fire the same missile.
But perhaps the Vault can also write nonsense or more surely transcribe only BMS-specific restrictions/inconsistencies.
For example, the Rafale with the Meteor missile has a MAR of just 14 nautical miles, but the Eurofighter has a MAR of 56 nautical miles.I don’t take into account MAR’s information in VAULT: We did our own tests …
From memory, the 120B’s MAR is 21nm (+/-4nm) when it is fired at 25kft under 400kts -
@Rouge1512
F-15 often has a kinematic advantage because it is faster. The missile inherits that extra speed, thereby extending its range. -
Thank you for your opinion.
That’s what I said above, and that’s what seems rational, but for Suhkoi69 and indeed for the definitions found on the net, the generic MAR only depends on the missile.
Good day nethertheless, I’ve learnt that, if the potential speed of the carrier aircraft does play a part, that the Eurofighter is 4 times faster than the Rafale
-
I generally defined the MAR as a reference distance in nm where you need to be cold to be safe for a Missile+Aircraft couple*, which ought to be known « by heart ».
During BVR engagement, from that reference value, I add, or generally subtract, 1 or more nm depending on :
- the known “Commit situation” (speeds & altitudes of Launcher and Target) (the higher altitude and speed differences the higher the subtraction)
- the anticipated defensive method I am going to use (the more violent, the higher the subtraction)
So a MAR (reference) of 20 nm for example can be lowered to 16 nm or even less** for the distance I plan to go defensive, if I arrive very high and very fast on a low alt - low speed target*** and if I plan to do a high dive crank + perpendicular split S when going defensive.
Notes : * The aircraft impact on the MAR is a second order impact
** This is not an exact science
*** The target speed is a second order impact -
@Stevie said in When to engage defensive?:
you NEVER want to approach a bogey at or above Mach 1.0
My own (4.35 PvE) experience is rather different. Besides giving my own missile more speed, I need to be as fast as possible to not end up too slow after turning cold.
The F-16 is notoriously bad at turning at high altitude and after lofting my missiles, turning to the side (to reduce closure rate while keeping the bandit on my radar) and then finally turning cold and diving away, I could end up so slow that I can’t maneuver efficiently anymore if I didn’t start with all the speed I could get.
For the same reason, I launch at a fairly low altitude. I could launch at 40k ft, but then I’ll end up at 300KIAS or lower after turning cold. What I do instead is to stay high until ~40NM out, then dive to 20k ft, loft (I do gain a little altitude during the loft), launch, turn around and run away. If I get into a situation where I have to turn hard at 30k ft or higher, I’m in trouble.