[4.37.3] AI ATC Vectoring
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AI ATC Vectoring
Version
4.37.3 (x64)Build
1329Detailed Description
During multiple Campaign flights we observed that ATC is vectoring the flights correctly, but does not leave enough space within and between flights. This is why we had to abort our approach, although we followed the ATC instructions very carefully. Sometimes on the glideslope we had no view on an aircraft directly in front of us (they came in below and from an unexpected angle) and during touch down we found ourselves in the blast of two big F-15 engines. That happened so often, that I now created a reproducible case.Pictures
Here I had to abort my approach, because GATOR4 flight was to close:
GATOR4-3 and 4-4 did the same:
Otherwise I had find myself here, like during this Campaign flight:
Example files
4373-BUG-AI ATC Vectoring.zipCrash logs
noneReproducibility Procedure
- Load 4373-BUG-AI ATC Vectoring.tac
- Take #1 seat of CAJUN5
- Commit to 3D
- Set UHF4
- Request Visual Approach (T T T 1)
- Follow ATC instructions as presice as possible (altitude, heading, speed)
- Observe the behavior of the AI flights
Expected Behavior
ATC should vector the aircraft with enough spacing between eachother. -
i have flown your mission twice
one with combat AP to test AI and one myself
in both tests, absolutly no issue with spacing (see both ACMIS=
from time to time there can be an interaction on final with some flights performing overhead
Long time ago, overheads were not granted when other aircrafts in the loop but people were complaining about that because they wanted to perform overheads anyway
so there can be some interaction from time to time with the overhead flight
https://mega.nz/file/K41DiYBb#wR-KqlAvOCJddBxgSPLt2hkeoSPJXcQaIr7Wl1mWf70
https://mega.nz/file/qosXjb6D#IrlFkpiCd7CvOqEVDnkKggHHtwfB9S8Wlk0j4HobU2A
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@Mav-jp said in [4.37.3] AI ATC Vectoring:
i have flown your mission twice
Thank you for digging into this. I’m packing for a week-long Falcon 4 LAN event right now.
For the younger folks here: This is an event where you connect PCs with Category 4 cables and when you sit up in your chair, you can see real people holding beer bottles and smiling in your face. Yes, more than 50 human beings.
Here I can take a look at your ACMIs and report back to you as soon as possible.
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@Nick-Taylor
Have a lot of fun in Buchenau!!! -
@Nick-Taylor on the picture you posted I see the CAS speed of the F-15 in front of you with 180-200ish knots. The F-16s behind you have 200CAS. Why are you flying at 317 knots before entering final?
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@Mav-jp Hey Mav, you can see the AI behaviour in both of your ACMI files:
combat AP.zip.acmi
At 5:00 you can see that Gator42 and Gator43 are coming very close to each other (2.483 ft instead of a minimum of 6.000 ft for VFR approach) .
At 5:44 you can see that Gator43 aborts the landing approach when the distance to Gator42 has dropped below 1.500 feet.
pLAYER.zip.acmi
Here the situation is even worse. At 12:00 you can see that Lynx51 and Lynx52 are coming much too close to each other (406 ft
At 12:35 you can see that Lynx52 aborts landing when the distance has dropped to 122 feet.
The expected behavior would be, that under VFR conditions the distance of >=6000 feet between aircraft is maintained (IFR >=3 nm). The distance between individual flights should be IFR >=5 nm (IFR >=10 nm).
Makes sense?
Greetings from Buchenau,
Nick -
@Nick-Taylor said in [4.37.3] AI ATC Vectoring:
@Mav-jp Hey Mav, you can see the AI behaviour in both of your ACMI files:
combat AP.zip.acmi
At 5:00 you can see that Gator42 and Gator43 are coming very close to each other (2.483 ft instead of a minimum of 6.000 ft for VFR approach) .
At 5:44 you can see that Gator43 aborts the landing approach when the distance to Gator42 has dropped below 1.500 feet.
pLAYER.zip.acmi
Here the situation is even worse. At 12:00 you can see that Lynx51 and Lynx52 are coming much too close to each other (406 ft
At 12:35 you can see that Lynx52 aborts landing when the distance has dropped to 122 feet.
The expected behavior would be, that under VFR conditions the distance of >=6000 feet between aircraft is maintained (IFR >=3 nm). The distance between individual flights should be IFR >=5 nm (IFR >=10 nm).
Makes sense?
Greetings from Buchenau,
NickThe distance are much lower because it’s needed to recover a lot of aircrafts in campaign. Those are Military aircrafts they don’t need a lot of separation (watch Overhead manœuvres)
Increasing the distances would make the airbases not working at all between take off and landings.
As you can see the ATC is able to make aircraft’s abort on final if absolute minimum distance is not respected
About the abort , the moment the abort is triggered is not a question of distance between each other .
At a certain distance from the treshold , the ATC is checking the aircraft in front and behind. If at this checking time the minima distances are not respected then the aircraft behind is aborted , unless he is emergency where in that case the aircraft in front is aborted . If both are emergency there will be no abort
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@Mav-jp said in [4.37.3] AI ATC Vectoring:
Increasing the distances would make the airbases not working at all between take off and landings.
Mmmmh, do understand what you mean and the issue behind it. Military aircraft have the mentioned approach minimums in real life. What about the following ideas to avoid this and still be able to have realistic spacing between aircraft?
- If there are a lot of aircraft approaching, but no flights departing, why not open both runways for landing?
- Same if there are only departing aircraft and no arriving traffic?
- What about an continous TOS calculation for STPs (Split and Land) for flights that are RTB towards the same airbase, so that necessary spacing can be build already between the last two steerpoints?
- Why not limit the number of aircraft in the air at the same time, from the same airbase already during flight generation?
- In really urgent cases, why not reroute single flights to their alternate field?
Just looking for a solution, if possible and interest.
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@tiag said in [4.37.3] AI ATC Vectoring:
@Nick-Taylor on the picture you posted I see the CAS speed of the F-15 in front of you with 180-200ish knots. The F-16s behind you have 200CAS. Why are you flying at 317 knots before entering final?
Already saw the other flight at base leg and did an abort at this point in time. Then I observed the F-15s.
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@Mav-jp That is quite an improvement! From the video title it sounds as if the fix is already in 4.37.3U2. Or is it slated for next version (4.37.4) ?
Cheers
JayB -
@Mav-jp This is simply crazy. You guys are nuts. Thank you very much for the time and work you put into this…
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@Mav-jp
Great Job. Thanks a lot!