SA-6 SEAD without standoff weapons?
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@ ofir1016 - I think we may be saying the same thing - if you consider “bird” as both body and weapon. I think it was the Kevin Costner version of Robin Hood where he says the Crusades taught him that one man defending his home is (more powerful, stronger, ?) than 10 paid soldiers. Also later he says Nobility is not a birthright, since he saw full on knights turn tail in the face of battle and a “lowly” squire defending a dying horse.
I’d agree that if fighting a war for your home you may say to hell with the consequences, even if fighting for your life. Merely that the doctorine is to save the equipment, at least with reguard to the checklists for the virtual bird. You’re no good to anyone if you’re dead. To the infantry/tank/pilot remark - plenty of stories out there saying in war you aren’t fighting for your country, people, way of life, … . You’re fighting for those immediately around you - your brothers in arms. Full Metal Jacket comes to mind most readily. But when it’s actually your ace in the hole, I think you’d agree you’re fighting to stay alive above all most of the time.
And I’d be more than willing to watch the History chan.'s stories, the only thing stopping me is no access to cable.
@ Neptune - I think you said it.
@jinro88 - I’ve got it. Psyops. Recall Apocalypse Now. They attached loud speakers to the heweys and played Flight of the Valkries. Loud. There’s your answer. Attach some speakers to your F-16 and play some loud music. Something super annoying. Bieber comes to mind, but pick something super annoying. Leave some survivors at the site. Drop some tapes or CD’s. Then send letters to their military circulars that those running the SA-6’s will continue to be torchered with that until they give up. Guarentee they’ll stop.
-BabiteSpeakers to your F-16 ? you know that Fighters when flying at medium altitude or low altitude try to fly at airspeed where you can only hear them when they are already passed youÉ they actually try to avoid being heard when incoming. And the SAm-6 operator is not sitting in the outside waiting for jet noise to actually shoot yeah ? lol
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Yes, and it is unfair. The power of SOJ is too strong in Falcon, literally kills the enemy SAMs, many times they are not able even to launch missile while they remain active (as I can remember) therefore they can be still targetted by ARMs.
Yes, but that’s mainly related to the fact that the AD in F4 BMS is controlled by AI and not very smart. If they would just aquire your flight data through data link from another radar or blink or just leave it off until you’re near, they would be a major threat.
Right now, SEAD is not that difficult with HARMs. -
Speakers to your F-16 ? you know that Fighters when flying at medium altitude or low altitude try to fly at airspeed where you can only hear them when they are already passed youÉ they actually try to avoid being heard when incoming. And the SAm-6 operator is not sitting in the outside waiting for jet noise to actually shoot yeah ? lol
Pretty sure he was kidding ……
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sorry, my bad
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Hi Jinro!
Did a quicky for you! Perhaps not as elegant as the other vids! Hope you like it!
Dancing with a SA6 in CAT3 config:
I just had to try this by myself. It includes some risk, but it has a chance to work out. It has something like kamikaze.
I tried low altitude passes with lofting the CBU’s, but you can’t sort out the targets then and the CBU’s will be pretty much useless- you need to pop up to drop them above burst altitude either way. If you go in low and fast, you have difficulties sorting out the right target.
Sound totally crazy, but I had sucess with lofting two MK-20’s at about 30k. That almost killed me (near miss), I had to get some speed fast and ended up in the same dancing dive than you did. Had to dogde 7 SA-6 until the MK-20 finally impacted. I got an ACMI tape, but can’t upload it here due to the size.I’d try to get someone together in multiplayer and use one aircraft as bait for the SA-6 staying just inside their WEZ to make them launch while the other one goes in low and fast and knocks out their radar. This might work out as well.
Recon on the SAM and setting a target steerpoint right on the straight flush does NOT give the exact coordinates of the radar btw. Using the radar and setting a markpoint on this point works better and will at least hit something. I found out looking out for the smaller returns in the middle of the group in DBS2 had the most success. -
The whole point I try to make with my video is to show people that you actually are capable of doing much more with your F16 in CAT3! with relative low G turns! than you might previously have thought. Not necessarily the point that you have to do this to engage a SAM. Practice makes you relax more, reduces risk, makes it anything but kamikaze, makes you feel more sufficient, makes you feel missle behavior. As far as SA6, SA5, SA3, SA2 is concerned, it shouldn’t have to be that exciting for people Hope the video shows that.
Practice and have fun doing it!
Cheers,
Scub -
Great video Scuby! Well done!
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The whole point I try to make with my video is to show people that you actually are capable of doing much more with your F16 in CAT3!
Never thought it was that easy. But it is understandable because the SA-6 will pull “just” 15G which is not that much given the speed it travels. I always used different approaches- one of them is pointing the nose straight down (exactly down), one wing to the SAM, drop chaff, jammer off and most of the older systems will break lock. Your relative speed is zero then.
Thanks for the video, well done!But still, I prefer having the HARM to knock the radar out first and then go in with LGB’s or Mav’s (if not carrying drop tanks).
Just attach Justin Bieber directly, forget the speakers.
You might also drop him right in the middle of the SAM side as close as possible to the radar which will instantly destroy the SAM’s ability to track anything by knocking out the operators with blood in their ears. :shock:
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Have tried different strategies now on about 20 attempts at the same campaign mission to take out an SA-6 radar and launchers, my findings are (in all cases creating a steerpoint from a TGP lock on the radar):
- high and medium level multiple JDAM drops are too risky, both because you usually get launched on just before release and because of inconsistent reliability when using multiple JDAM drops on multiple steerpoints
- low level CCIP attacks are too tricky in terms of picking up the target in enough time (especially with any hills in the way) and because of nearby ground forces
Best way I’ve found is an ingress in the weeds with a lofted single JDAM at the last moment (i.e. climbing with max of 2 seconds to go). Then you can return to the safety of high level to pick off other targets with CCRP munitions.
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Have tried different strategies now on about 20 attempts at the same campaign mission to take out an SA-6 radar and launchers, my findings are (in all cases creating a steerpoint from a TGP lock on the radar):
- high and medium level multiple JDAM drops are too risky, both because you usually get launched on just before release and because of inconsistent reliability when using multiple JDAM drops on multiple steerpoints
- low level CCIP attacks are too tricky in terms of picking up the target in enough time (especially with any hills in the way) and because of nearby ground forces
Best way I’ve found is an ingress in the weeds with a lofted single JDAM at the last moment (i.e. climbing with max of 2 seconds to go). Then you can return to the safety of high level to pick off other targets with CCRP munitions.
I use AGM-65s every time and works like a charm. If you have a wingman it’s even easier. One guy marks the SA-6 radar while the other guy flys the arc of the SAM WEZ on the opposing side (in BMS works well to draw the attention away from the hunter too if he sticks his nose inside the SAM threat circle). When the hunter marks the radar he sends to the killer who comes in on the deck and has no trouble acquiring the target and shooting. Yes, SA-6 has a low minimum altitude but he also has a small threat circle so it’s only a few seconds before the killer gets to shoot at him at standoff range and usually there is some terrain to use. It gets even better if one of you has a HARM or you have another SEAD flight because if the SAM shoots he fires his HARM, but if the HARM is not needed you save it and use the other weapons. Once the radar goes down you can clear out the SAM battalion completely by continuing to run the pattern. The tactic works well on SA-17s too when it takes more than just hitting the radar to knock out the SAM. During Bad Boy’s PvP that’s all we would do to knock out SA-17s.
Plus SA-6 are mobile so you usually can’t see them in the recon screen and for JDAMs you can’t use unless you mark the SAM anyway (either in recon or with markpoint). If the SAM does shoot at you in either position, turn your ECM on (works better if off when he shoots then turn on) chaff, and break turn to put at 3/9 line (can be done in CATIII) - usually breaks lock on the 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s, and 6s - newer stuff is tougher. If far enough away and SAM doesn’t lose lock, turn ECM off, break into to the SAM to the opposing 3/9 while flashing Jammer back on. Anyhow, works for me and can be done with JDAMs or CBUs instead of AGM-65.
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Here’s another one:
Load up the MK-82 air. Set up arming delay to 1 or 2 seconds, pairs, 50ft spacing, ripple 12. Lock up the radar in FCR (recon should give an idea which one is the radar, usually one of the smaller contacts in the middle). Mark this as a markpoint, set up CCRP on the markpoint.
Switch radar off, dive to the deck, go to 550kts and stay below 200ft. On ingress, drop a few chaff and flares. Shortly before release, pull up to maybe 500-700ft. Release all bombs on the straight flush, drop some more chaffs and flares and get out :headb: -
Just a find here to add… In most case if a pair of aircraft enters the SAM range the SAM first locks and targets No1… of the flight.
So a good tactic (with my poor knowledge) could be no1 as bait and no2 as killer.
No1 plays at the borders of the SAM (quick in-out) and keeps SAM active (at the same time scans the area for A-A threats) and No2 goes for the kill.
Works like a charm every time. -
Have tried different strategies now on about 20 attempts at the same campaign mission to take out an SA-6 radar and launchers, my findings are (in all cases creating a steerpoint from a TGP lock on the radar):
- high and medium level multiple JDAM drops are too risky, both because you usually get launched on just before release and because of inconsistent reliability when using multiple JDAM drops on multiple steerpoints
- low level CCIP attacks are too tricky in terms of picking up the target in enough time (especially with any hills in the way) and because of nearby ground forces
Best way I’ve found is an ingress in the weeds with a lofted single JDAM at the last moment (i.e. climbing with max of 2 seconds to go). Then you can return to the safety of high level to pick off other targets with CCRP munitions.
Be aware that JDAM (at least RL one) has much better glide range than ballistic MK82. CCRP solution is for ballistic and JDAM should get a handful more miles standoff range.
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That’s what I thought… but releasing a single JDAM from c. 15000ft just after the pull up queue (range about 10 miles I think) using MAN release still resulted in the bomb falling short.
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As posted tons of times before: the range cue ‘>’ should be inside launchzone (see HUD top right)
Then switch to MAN.
Pickle
Never misses. -
Just for fun, this unexpectedly happened last night during egress in Balkans, an SA6 popped up just before FLOT, no harms, no weapons, low fuel, no time to mark points or tgp the battalion. It emmidiately started spitting fire at our 4ship…
…Wouldn’t you rather have practiced one more alternative? Lol.
Here the ACMI recording of me dancing in CAT3 (although dakota and joker) and in nighttime (3:30 a.m.) against that pesky SA6, with nothing but my guns. Ofcourse I’d always recommend not doing this! Rather go around the SAM! Leave it for the next flight…
Cheers,
Scub -
With the hunter-killer scenario, how does the hunter hand off the target to the killer?
Thanks,
Jex. -
With the hunter-killer scenario, how does the hunter hand off the target to the killer?
Thanks,
Jex.you can use the air to ground datalink, or if you are a masochist, you can read out the coordinates of the position to the other pilot.
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should be relatively easy to do a low altitude JDAM toss against. if you have a 2 man team, one guy can brush it’s WEZ, and then grab cursor POS or MKPT it’s rough location, then have the second guy roll in under cover, pull up to 20~ degrees, switch man and throw bomb. process takes maybe 2 seconds, hits basically 100% of the time and exposes you very little; you’ll maybe make it up to 1000~ ft if you’re quick, and can easily descend below cover again no problem.
i also find that the divetoss mode is pretty effective against SAMs if you’re carrying cluster. wait for a friendly AI flight to brush the SA-6 battery, when it fires, move DTOSS cue over smoke and deliver high burst altitude cluster with a strong ripple, and if you’re a little lucky you’ll knock out at least some of the launchers and the radar.
i use this to deal with buks near damascus in israel actually, works fairly well.