Whatever happened to Fighter Ops?
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Forget FO, what’s the word on FSX@War? Aren’t you a tester on that? Is this going to be the next big thing or wot?
The problem with FSX@War is that FSX’s FDE just sucks at high AoA/post-stall dynamics, so it’s use is quite limited for an accurate combat simulation. Even their turbojet engine model has some limitations that prevent it from accurately simulating a lot of engine related stuff. Maybe the P3D guys will improve that some day.
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The Seven-G? IMHO it also never will be a full product. A small group simply is not create hundreds of 3D models, skins, creating a good AI, FM and dynamic campaign… Without dynamic campaign or very easily managable MP game with large playerbase a sim is pointless.
You know, pretty much all of my favorite games were made by small groups of people or a collective of volunteers - you yourself work as a one-man team, it seems, to bring your mods to the public. There’s WAY too much evidence to the contrary with regards to small teams to simply state it can’t happen. It certainly is hard, otherwise it would be done by now. BUT, is it impossible? Heck no. I’ve seen comments like these so many times over, and it really does tick me off to see them. People have lives, and hobbies unfortunately come second. That doesn’t mean that those hobbies can’t be brought to fruition, however.
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You know, pretty much all of my favorite games were made by small groups of people or a collective of volunteers - you yourself work as a one-man team, it seems, to bring your mods to the public. There’s WAY too much evidence to the contrary with regards to small teams to simply state it can’t happen. It certainly is hard, otherwise it would be done by now. BUT, is it impossible? Heck no. I’ve seen comments like these so many times over, and it really does tick me off to see them. People have lives, and hobbies unfortunately come second. That doesn’t mean that those hobbies can’t be brought to fruition, however.
I agree with this, I am about 14 months into building my own game (and it’s almost done!) but my game is 2D with basic artwork, and the multiplayer section is a little buggy at the moment, and there is no real campaign in the game (though it wouldn’t fit the game design anyway) and I have done it all alone.
But to build something with the fidelity expected of a sim to the graphics expectations of the modern generations? It’s possible, but it’s going to take time and involve a lot of people and a lot of work. It’s also going to require the right amount of people with the RIGHT skills. I mean, yes, can a team of twenty people create a hundred moderate quality 3D models and textures in a year? YES THEY CAN! Can that same team program a game engine? Well, no, probably not.
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You know, pretty much all of my favorite games were made by small groups of people or a collective of volunteers - you yourself work as a one-man team, it seems, to bring your mods to the public. There’s WAY too much evidence to the contrary with regards to small teams to simply state it can’t happen. It certainly is hard, otherwise it would be done by now. BUT, is it impossible? Heck no. I’ve seen comments like these so many times over, and it really does tick me off to see them. People have lives, and hobbies unfortunately come second. That doesn’t mean that those hobbies can’t be brought to fruition, however.
Are they very complex games? My favorite RPGs were made by Piranha Bytes which is a small group, but complexity of an RPG is very far from a hardcore flight sim. One thing is makeing MOD for a mostly functional and “finished” game and another build from 0.
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@Ara’:
Hee hee…
Speaking from the inside out, what drove me away was Dirk…! LMAO…!
(I have the honour of being the first Team member sacked.)
Can’t even remember if that was before or after I was writing the Manual for Falcon 4: Operation Infinite Resolve…
Tell you what, though --> I sure could pick the most SUREFIRE Teams…! HAH…!! /rimshot
Aragorn.
Ahh yes, I do remember that gorny!
Dirk wasn’t the issue with me. Like I said, it was the lack of any combined team effort to accomplish anything and a poor choice in development direction that actually started with axing out some of the original founders (like Claude and Haole). Then decisions that alienated other developers on the team lead to mass defections. When I left, it was getting down right horrible. The few good foundation devs left (like Rjester) were on the brink of leaving and I knew the ship was doomed. Sad really. Everyone needs to work together and work with each other to make something like that happen. In the end, it was back stabbing and out right theft that pissed me off over the cliff and out the door.
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Are they very complex games? My favorite RPGs were made by Piranha Bytes which is a small group, but complexity of an RPG is very far from a hardcore flight sim. One thing is makeing MOD for a mostly functional and “finished” game and another build from 0.
That’s not untrue, but there are a lot of mods out there which pretty much make a new game with a given engine. I’d say that portable engines are one of the best means of getting a game done, though those kinds of engines may also be one of the things limiting new games on the market.
As per complex programs with complex engines made by small teams? Look at Frictional Games’ projects. I can’t stand to play them because they’re quite literally terrifying (which is the idea, of course), but those are all in-house game engines with probably the best FPS-type physics engines I’ve ever seen. X-Plane, which is probably the most flexible and capable flight simulator on the market, is basically produced by a core team of three people. If you want some fun with a space combat sim, look up Starshatter, which has a type of dynamic campaign, quite nice (though starting to age) graphics, and was designed to be easily modded. It’s now open source as well, and can be freely downloaded.
There is a lot of prescedent to say it’s hard, but it’s not impossible. I for one would probably put you on the “ignore list” if I was a developer and you were visiting my site/forum with that kind of attitude. It’s just not constructive in any shape or form.
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@Ara’:
Can’t even remember if that was before or after I was writing the Manual for Falcon 4: Operation Infinite Resolve…
Hey 'Gorn that reminds me: the A10 portion for that manual is done, where should I send it…?
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Hey 'Gorn that reminds me: the A10 portion for that manual is done, where should I send it…?
LMFAO!
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In my experience in the business world (and I think it applies here) the key to success in any team effort is management. You need one person at the top with vision, authority tempered with integrity and an even hand to steer the ship. He must be able to delegate to the right man for the right job. Then around him a small group that are absolutely loyal and with the ability to accept decisions that they may not like but will carry out for the good of the project. It goes without saying that every one involved are incredibly talented with the egos that go with it but can set that aside for the reward of collective success. That is a very hard combination to assemble. If your team is missing any of those parts, you are doomed to fail.
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I for one would probably put you on the “ignore list” if I was a developer and you were visiting my site/forum with that kind of attitude. It’s just not constructive in any shape or form.
Aham. Can I ask why?
I saw first shots about Seven-G about seven years ago. We still not have anything in our hands and I did not see just any words about campaigns and about the environment. Yes, likely we will get a wonderfully modeled Hornet. Without environment what is the benefit of this?
How should I constructive concerning on a non released stuff…? I’m a modder of Falcon, was for FF and now BMS4. Is not enough constructive? I have made tons of recommendations based on RL data. I can be constructive where it is possible…
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?8230-Suggestion-for-database-data-supply&highlight=suggestions+dataI’m fed up with over PC comments and post on many forums… Why is not beeing constructive or just get the “jerk label” where I just explained the reality…? Just imagine Falcon series without dynamic campaign. Ouch… Falcon likely would die more than a decade ago. This is why more important from my aspect the environment and I can live lower lever of modeling and different level of abstraction, For ex. F-16C MFD sybols in F-15C pit.
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Aham. Can I ask why?
I saw first shots about Seven-G about seven years ago. We still not have anything in our hands and I did not see just any words about campaigns and about the environment. Yes, likely we will get a wonderfully modeled Hornet. Without environment what is the benefit of this?
How should I constructive concerning on a non released stuff…? I’m a modder of Falcon, was for FF and now BMS4. Is not enough constructive? I have made tons of recommendations based on RL data. I can be constructive where it is possible…
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?8230-Suggestion-for-database-data-supply&highlight=suggestions+dataI’m fed up with over PC comments and post on many forums… Why is not beeing constructive or just get the “jerk label” where I just explained the reality…? Just imagine Falcon series without dynamic campaign. Ouch… Falcon likely would die more than a decade ago. This is why more important from my aspect the environment and I can live lower lever of modeling and different level of abstraction, For ex. F-16C MFD sybols in F-15C pit.
when reality sucks, you can get a ‘jerk label’ for telling it like it is.
Unfortunately the world is fairly subjective, and things in it are part of that set. As such, for telling it like you see it you can end up with others thinking you have a pretty poor attitude.
Im going to leave it at that, largely because the forums here have standards regarding how we talk to others.
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Different people, different expririences, different visions about their “own” falcon version and different opinions - normal.
Thus on public debates “clashes” are pre-programed and very time-consuming, which is not productive at all and a reason why i stay away from it as much as possbile.That a project like this lives from the variety of ideas and contributions is a fact too, so maybe its just a question of how a message is delivered? Imagine telling your secretary, who just wrote a letter wrong:
- “your typing sucks, damn it. You don´t know anything about your profession”
or - “don´t you think, that the letter would be nicer wihthout those funny typos?”
There is a saying here in germany, which goes somewhat like this: “One can be right in doing alot of work, but one can also do alot of things right”… or is it a “Too many chiefs and to less indians” problem ?
Just let´s respect eachother while watching our “tone” …and all will be fine
PS: And strangly enough, even in the sim community you have now and then self-proclaimed “experts” popping up. With all the answers and on their private missionary crusade to change their little virtual world.
- “your typing sucks, damn it. You don´t know anything about your profession”
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My friend Molni,
…about seven years ago. We still not have anything in our hands
EMF today counts more than 10 years. You still have nothing on your disk, except some nice shots that many would say “vaporware”, “photoshopped” etc… But they ARE on RC2, if you know what this means for software-jerks, and what is coming is the best revolutions after bms go public. So considering their history, team members count and plan, I’d say that it was worth the wait. Similar goes for SevenG or any other passioned individuals who try to produce something serious in their free time. Not all will succeed (FOps, Angola theater etc), but negative criticism is the last thing one wants to hear or read.
I have made tons of recommendations based on RL data
Rest assure that most of the ppl reading this can also recommend rl data based on rl documents, friends on the job, or other difficult to acquire sources. This is NOT about data collection, nor adding some numeric values to the standard fields provided by tools like F4Browse, TacEdit, or directly to the .ini’s. That does NOT make you, me, anyone a “Developer”. Real developers have a full view of the background code, and their effort and passion is to find out what other parts will brake if you add a “rl value” in that field.
Just imagine Falcon series without dynamic campaign
As I said in the past, the dynamic campaigns logic of Falcon is unique, BUT, custom created TE’s are way more useful in the “everyday training” that most request from this title.
So your opinion below:
Falcon likely would die more than a decade ago
I think it is far away from realism. There is no such potential for the future, as long as there are passionate coders who like to push forward their coding skills…
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This is NOT about data collection, nor adding some numeric values to the standard fields provided by tools like F4Browse, TacEdit, or directly to the .ini’s. That does NOT make you, me, anyone a “Developer”. Real developers have a full view of the background code, and their effort and passion is to find out what other parts will brake if you add a “rl value” in that field.
I think it is far away from realism. There is no such potential for the future, as long as there are passionate coders who like to push forward their coding skills…
Amen to that.
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That does NOT make you, me, anyone a “Developer”.
Did you misread my comment? I said “modder”…
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@Akbar:
The problem with FSX@War is that FSX’s FDE just sucks at high AoA/post-stall dynamics, so it’s use is quite limited for an accurate combat simulation. Even their turbojet engine model has some limitations that prevent it from accurately simulating a lot of engine related stuff. Maybe the P3D guys will improve that some day.
The guys at VRS managed to get around a lot of FSXs limitations with the VRS Superhornet by practically making a separate program for all of that sort of stuff. Who knows what the Pro version of the VRS Superhornet will bring as it will have an even better FM than the current one.
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The Seven-G? IMHO it also never will be a full product. A small group simply is not create hundreds of 3D models, skins, creating a good AI, FM and dynamic campaign… Without dynamic campaign or very easily managable MP game with large playerbase a sim is pointless.
No they could add such features later it would be a start for the developers to reach a point where a sim is playable and then build on that by adding MP and eventually a DC. They could even use profits from a single player version released to help fund the improvements and allow the devs to work full time.;)
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As an Indie developer, I can tell you that there are a lot of costs that get sucked up during development that are often very very hard to pay for while working a 9-5 job and supporting a family.
Have you ever looked at Software Licensing Costs? Photoshop has now gone to a subscription model - 50$ for the full suite, per month. 3D modeling software is typically in the low hundreds. IDE’s for software development are usually one to two hundred for the goods ones. Is there free stuff out there? Yes, but the free stuff is usually riddled with catches that prevent you from being able to do things that you really need to do to make a good product.
And we haven’t even talked about hardware yet. If you’re developing something with a client/server model you need two PCs that meet the bare bones minimum of what you’re working on to develop with. You also probably want some kind of backup system, and your own system needs to be able to handle development and testing of everything that you’re doing.
Now multiple all of that by 10 people, also paying for a website and a webserver and domain name and maybe some kind of blog, all monthly.
And tack that onto your normal life costs. Most people are living to close to the edge to be able to afford this kind of development cycle.
I am not defending what they are doing - I am just saying, Indie Game Development is expensive. And it takes a lot longer then most people think because you are also working a 40 hour a week regular job while you’re doing it.
why didn’t these costs prevent the BMS team from developing F4? because as it is, the BMS update is entirely a new sim (some called it Falcon5).
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why didn’t these costs prevent the BMS team from developing F4? because as it is, the BMS update is entirely a new sim (some called it Falcon5).
The costs are not preventive, per-se, especially not when you are talking about people who may have access to one or two of the applications required. I have access to an IDE and Photoshop already, but I still need a copy of a decent modeling program. I can spread the 600$ cost of a decent piece of software out over two years to fit it into my budget…which explains the three-four week Falcon timeline for rolling out updates. See?
At some point you have all the tools and the costs become moot but spinning up a whole team from scratch costs money up front - the BMS Team (as I loosely understand the history) had all already been doing some degree of modding to this game or others before they came together to build BMS, meaning they were already equipped and now it’s primarily a timing issue with them rolling out new updates.
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