AIM-7M sparrow & the RWR
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sorry for getting mad, i believe in the blind spot now. even though i can’t nail down exactly where it is.
The RWR coverage is exactly defined in DB as has been explained…
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Do not use it like this… and known that in the future version … it will be even worse.
Yknow, would be cool if false positives / roughly ‘area’ painted information was modeled - like if you hardlock one guy, his wingman also gets RWR paints.
I can dream
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Yknow, would be cool if false positives / roughly ‘area’ painted information was modeled - like if you hardlock one guy, his wingman also gets RWR paints.
I can dream
Arf… Can’t have everything. Or maybe later with luck and talent. MUCH MUCH could still be done on this area to make it more realistic and less accurate/perfect.
@ Everybody calling about bug in the RWR … you must know that BMS’s RWR is the most precise, smart, accurate, perfect in the world!!! Faaaaaaar toooooo much compared to real life spec.
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@ Everybody calling about bug in the RWR … you must know that BMS’s RWR is the most precise, smart, accurate, perfect in the world!!! Faaaaaaar toooooo much compared to real life spec.
Exactly.
… as well as holy ARH weapons… :uham:8) -
Read again what I wrote previously.
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You are completely overestimating the RWR’s precision and capabilities.
Do not use it like this… and known that in the future version … it will be even worse.
if you’re not in the blindspot and hardlocked, it should tell you. why wouldn’t it? did they design it so that if you rotate through blind it stops?
because that’s what happens.
The RWR coverage is exactly defined in DB as has been explained…
according to the drawing on page whatever, it was your plane’s belly, and the top. go nose on with an adder and do a very hard dive so that your belly is pointing directly at it. does it go away?
it never has for me, so either something else is going on or it’s more subtle than the drawing indicates.
edit: that and it doesn’t happen all the time. i did close to the same maneuver a few times in a row and the result was different every time.
angels 15, nose on direct merge. wait for enemy fox1, split S
results are split between:
enemy vanishes, no launch warning
enemy stays there, launch warning stays
enemy vanishes, launch warning continues
edit 2: if you’re saying that’s a feature and it’s supposed to behave like that and does that in real life, that’s fine. i’m content with the fact that i now know it’s not random, so i can just plan my engagements around it.
it just behaves in a very strange way, so i figured that what i was encountering were passive SARH missiles, which makes no sense.
the fact that you can get a “passive” SARH missile after rotating through blind is not very intuitive, that’s all.
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@Cik:
if you’re not in the blindspot and hardlocked, it should tell you. why wouldn’t it? did they design it so that if you rotate through blind it stops?
because that’s what happens.
The RWR coverage is exactly defined in DB as has been explained…
according to the drawing on page whatever, it was your plane’s belly, and the top. go nose on with an adder and do a very hard dive so that your belly is pointing directly at it. does it go away?
it never has for me, so either something else is going on or it’s more subtle than the drawing indicates.
edit: that and it doesn’t happen all the time. i did close to the same maneuver a few times in a row and the result was different every time.
angels 15, nose on direct merge. wait for enemy fox1, split S
results are split between:
enemy vanishes, no launch warning
enemy stays there, launch warning stays
enemy vanishes, launch warning continues
edit 2: if you’re saying that’s a feature and it’s supposed to behave like that and does that in real life, that’s fine. i’m content with the fact that i now know it’s not random, so i can just plan my engagements around it.
it just behaves in a very strange way, so i figured that what i was encountering were passive SARH missiles, which makes no sense.
the fact that you can get a “passive” SARH missile after rotating through blind is not very intuitive, that’s all.
Okay, yes there is a bug there, no thats not how it works IRL, but the fact that there ARE weird things IS something that you get IRL.
You never get a active or passive SARH missile. The warning is based on the RWR antennae getting paints of CW radar energy. If you stop getting painted, then the missile is trashed. If the antennae get occluded, then the missile is not trashed, and yes, if the antennae come out of the blind spot then yes you should get another warning.
Whatever changes Molni made to the SIM data settings for his mod, it removes all these complaints, by making the RWR very ineffectual. Im a fan, just for it making you rely on it less and pay more attention to your other sensors (Mk. 1 is getting a lot more use by me now), and sanitizing airspace correctly.
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We were talking about an F-4 20miles away.
Now your talking about an AA-12 Adder (R-77) a Active Radar Homing Missile manoeuvring within a few miles of your position.
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@Cik:
if you’re not in the blindspot and hardlocked, it should tell you. why wouldn’t it? did they design it so that if you rotate through blind it stops?
IRL: library accurancy, frequency agility, time processing, ambiguities … etc …
IN GAME : I don not know!? … I’m not coder.
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We were talking about an F-4 20miles away.
Now your talking about an AA-12 Adder (R-77) a Active Radar Homing Missile manoeuvring within a few miles of your position.
i’m just saying, if there is a total blind under your plane then any source of radiation that’s in it shouldn’t show up. have you ever ‘lost’ an adder or AMRAAM because it’s under you? shouldn’t you, if the blind spot is that large? i never have, and i’ve maneuvered against tons of ARH missiles and i’ve never lost one in a blind spot.
i split S against a sparrow and suddenly half the time it disappears and never reappears, half the time it doesn’t, half the time some of it disappears. and then it will never reappear once it disappears. the only time you get a hardlock / launch tone is if they shoot a second missile. that first missile (which is now definitely out of blind, pretty much right behind you) is effectively “passive” you don’t get a launch tone or any indication that you are under attack from what is by all accounts an extremely loud missile.
if this is the blind spot that everyone talks about, then it should stop your RWR from showing ANY source, but it seems to only effect SARH missiles like the sparrow, and perhaps the MIG-23s AA7. i’m going to replicate the same scenario with a MIG-23 and see if i can get it to do the same thing tomorrow probably.
at least then i’ll know if it’s all SARH or just the AIM-7M sparrow.
i can’t recall another time that it’s happened for instance with say an AA-10. but maybe it has been happening without me realizing it’s because of RWR blindspot. i’ll check back.
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Cik
You can’t talk about older SARH missiles with there outdated supporting radar painting you as a target from 10-20 miles away and a next generation radar system designed to guide a AMRAAM with midcourse updates and on-board terminal guidance radar.
Apples and Oranges.
And they didn’t volley 2 or three missiles, they reacquire and fire again.
Watch your own ACMI files.
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@clik:
if this is the blind spot that everyone talks about, then it should stop your RWR from showing ANY source,
Time processing.
The RWR is not updated every single seconds. The more it have signals to manage, the more time it will needs to refresh info and compare them to the library, with some measurments inaccurancies and maybe several recived signals comming from one single source … And it is not because your RWR display is empty that the CVR is not reciving and measuring tons of diferent signals which are outside the library and hence not displayed.
One more time, (and for the last time on my side) … your understanding of RWR is biased by a “computerized” approach of this thing (code => 1 - 0, YES - NO, blind cone, no blind cone, tracked, not tracked … good? … no … not good.)
You will have to deal with it … and now … you are aware that the RWR do not tells you the truth, but can only provide some relatives clues about a possible situation.… now, feel free to do any tests you want and make any conclusion you like. IMO … this will be rather “irrelevant”.
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Cik
You can’t talk about older SARH missiles with there outdated supporting radar painting you as a target from 10-20 miles away and a next generation radar system designed to guide a AMRAAM with midcourse updates and on-board terminal guidance radar.
Apples and Oranges.
And they don’t volley 2 or three missiles, they reacquire and fire again.
Watch your own ACMI files.
apples and oranges is fair.
by the way, they can totally fire multiple sparrows and guide them all. i’ve seen it at least 10 times just in about 30 minutes of testing.
use 7 “incoming missile camera” (only as a test, in the campaign it’s megacheating) you will often see 2+ sparrows maneuvering against you from the same plane. load up dogfight, choose a single F-4E and maneuver into WEZ. it will sometimes choose to fire 2 missiles at you. uh, it might be a uniquely F-4 problem though; i don’t think i’ve ever seen MIG-23s for instance double tap SARH missiles (they will sometimes shoot two AA-7s, but those are those crazy russian heat seeker variants) test it yourself if you don’t believe me. the ACMIs bear it out. they can do it.
(note: i’m not sure which ACMIs you’re talking about because in at least one an F-4 ripples two sparrows within about a second of each other and they both track and slam into the same aircraft about a second apart. i’m not sure if they’re supposed to do that; maybe it’s possible for them to guide multiple sparrows at the same target; i just mention it because i’m not sure.
dee-jay snip
i will accept time processing in good faith, because i don’t maintain the airplane. of course it makes sense for it to “remember” where the threat was if it loses it for a few moments. all well and good.
it makes sense that it will give “fuzzy returns” (i just made that up) where it’s not sure if it’s a 23 / 29 whatever, inaccuracy is fine. i would be all for an implementation of that in 4.33 (when it’s released of course, on christmas day)
but it’s clearly anomalous for it never to report a launch even if you are hardlocked and a missile is tracking you, even when you’re in a “good spot” for it to be detected. you can do this over and over, sometimes it is in flight and tracking for up to 20~ seconds with absolutely no warning whatsoever. it does this repeatedly. would it do this in real life? i doubt it. if you want to talk about game logic, let’s discuss why a missile that’s clearly being targeted at you in an aggressive manner ALWAYS behaves this way. isn’t that “videogame” ? if you want it to be unpredictable, then you should fix the issue because as it is right now it doesn’t behave like how it probably would in real life, either.
unless you are stating that once you do a split S a missile can maneuver against you slaved to a target that’s pinging the hell out of your aircraft for 20 seconds without it noticing? because that seems clearly dumb.
RWR fallibility? i’m all for it. blind spots? cool. but the way it behaves even after you’ve pulled out of your maneuver that occludes your sensors (wherever those are; you’d know more about it than me) for a significant amount of time is just very strange.
and i don’t mean to sound insulting or rip the game up or anything, sorry if it comes across that way. i’ve put 500 hours into BMS and i don’t plan to stop. it really is an excellent sim. the best? yeah i’d hand out that accolade. besides the first few rantposts about an issue i didn’t understand i’ve tried to be constructive.
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i dont think there is any issue for them to guide multiple sparrows - they just illuminate the target and the sparrows guide themselves.
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i dont think there is any issue for them to guide multiple sparrows - they just illuminate the target and the sparrows guide themselves.
if they are truly beam riders it’s probably possible for them to guide an arbitrary number of missiles to target. i just mentioned it because i wasn’t sure like i said; i’m not sure how much of the work is done on the F-4 itself.
they definitely shouldn’t be able to TWS (or whatever the equivalent is…) and fire at multiple targets. i’ve never ever seen a SARH plane do that. as it should be.
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Beam riders have to stay in the beam of the guiding aircraft, i.e. command guidance. I was under the impression that the AIM-7 guides on reflected radar energy instead.
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I heard this so many time but I’d like to see 1 person who can record for me please how he can evade AMRAAM shot in the sim fired straight at him from 5-6NM head on at OPERATIONAL parameters
Heya - I’ve seen it. Cop and Firebird from 1stGuns/23rd VFS, later 440th Angeldust I think. They perfected a way (cheat?) for AMRAAM evasion. They observed the “M” on the RWR and upon one certain time, when or after it hits the inner ring, they turned into the missle. They perfected the timing of this move so much, they became virtually immune to AMRAAM shots.
I tried in 1 vs 1 against COP and albeit I tried to fire unpredictable sequences, also changing the attack angle between shots, he defeated every single of my shots. That even while keeping high aspect on me, closing in for heaters or guns.
I tried as well, but for me this trick worked then and when, but never as reliable as for the both of them.Then again, you’re right - If they are surprised by an active “M” while low on energy this probably wouldn’t work as there would be not enough time to build up speed and angles to perfrom this tactic. However - it was impressive anyway, and the initial aspect didnt matter much as long as there was enough energy to maneuver.
And this already was some years ago in SP3 - no clue if still applicable to BMS 4.
cheers!
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but it’s clearly anomalous for it never to report a launch even if you are hardlocked and a missile is tracking you, even when you’re in a “good spot” for it to be detected. you can do this over and over, sometimes it is in flight and tracking for up to 20~ seconds with absolutely no warning whatsoever. it does this repeatedly. would it do this in real life?
IRL again : selectivity, measurements accurancy, signal processing. In the lribray, if the signal carateristics are “too narrow” (to avoid ambiguities) it is possible that the measured signal doesn’t match the radar spec/missile link signal enough to trigger the Launch alarme (which is not always an evidence of launch, but, depending on missile type, could be only a, a/c radar precific signal/rate/freq/PRI … For a given missile type and launch plateforme, it is possible that the Launch alarm will be trrigered in one case, and not in the other.
Heya - I’ve seen it. Cop and Firebird from 1stGuns/23rd VFS, later 440th Angeldust I think. They perfected a way (cheat?) for AMRAAM evasion. They observed the “M” on the RWR and upon one certain time,
when or after it hits the inner ring, they turned into the missle. They perfected the timing of this move so much, they became virtually immune to AMRAAM shots.Indded … this is “passive cheat”. Because not enough “random” in missile models and RWR behavior … and … hunderds of “trainings” in game (default of the simulation)
Adding a bias in RWR pseudo distance measurment would totaly break this “cheat”.
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@Cik:
apples and oranges is fair.
by the way, they can totally fire multiple sparrows and guide them all. i’ve seen it at least 10 times just in about 30 minutes of testing.
<snip>(note: i’m not sure which ACMIs you’re talking about because in at least one an F-4 ripples two sparrows within about a second of each other and they both track and slam into the same aircraft about a second apart. i’m not sure if they’re supposed to do that; maybe it’s possible for them to guide multiple sparrows at the same target; i just mention it because i’m not sure.</snip>
With out wanting to sound daft or anything but the F4 has always been able to ripple fire its entire load of AIM7’s and guide them against a single target. what it can’t do is guide against multiple targets. This isn’t unique to the F4, all SARH missile equipped aircraft can do it. You need to learn how an SARH missile homes to a painted target. All the carrier aircraft is doing is painting the target with the radar. The missile then homes on the reflected radar energy. The carrier aircraft has NO contact with the missile once launched. Read some books on air combat in Vietnam and you’ll see examples of ripple firing of SARH missiles.
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IRL again : selectivity, measurements accurancy, signal processing. In the lribray, if the signal carateristics are “too narrow” (to avoid ambiguities) it is possible that the measured signal doesn’t match the radar spec/missile link signal enough to trigger the Launch alarme (which is not always an evidence of launch, but, depending on missile type, could be only a, a/c radar precific signal/rate/freq/PRI … For a given missile type and launch plateforme, it is possible that the Launch alarm will be trrigered in one case, and not in the other.
fine, but you’re telling me that the act of pulling a split -S will disturb these criteria?
theorycraft: an F-4E is on your tail and fires a sparrow at you. your RWR notices an increase in activity and matches the radar’s activity state and precision and angle and intensity etc to it’s profile that determines “this is what an F-4E launching at you looks like” it warns you by flashing some lights etc, saying counter et cetera. this “activity state” (a measure of radar intensity, estimated range, precision, refresh rate, etc etc.) does not change after you pull your split S.
after the split S, the intensity state is exactly the same at the same range, of course more intense if closer, and less intense if further. but if you were at the same range, it would be exactly the same.
would it scream warning in both cases, logically as it uses the same criteria? if your RWR senses an incoming launch state it should warn you in both cases. just because the missile host is “temporarily in your blind spot” should not mean anything, should it? once you pull out of sensor occlusion the enemy radar activity should register as a launch state. the incoming activity is the same, and the RWR criteria is the same. is this not the case?
in the ideal world, it would be possible to be fired upon without a launch warning. so in the example being fired upon from behind with no sensor occlusion your RWR could fail to detect a launch state. and then if you do pull a split S then your RWR can still fail to warn you, but not BECAUSE of the maneuver (unless you stay in the ‘blind spot’ until the missile hits you) but because the RWR failed, and not because at some point the source was occluded for 2~ seconds.
like i said, i’m fine with it being muddy, uncertain etc. but what it is now is not uncertain, as far as i can tell if you do lose the RWR contact they will 100% always have a passive missile on you. it is actually infallible in the opposite direction it usually is. it is literally impossible to get a launch state, even though the launch criteria is definitely fulfilled.
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@Cik:
apples and oranges is fair.
by the way, they can totally fire multiple sparrows and guide them all. i’ve seen it at least 10 times just in about 30 minutes of testing.
use 7 “incoming missile camera” (only as a test, in the campaign it’s megacheating) you will often see 2+ sparrows maneuvering against you from the same plane. load up dogfight, choose a single F-4E and maneuver into WEZ. it will sometimes choose to fire 2 missiles at you. uh, it might be a uniquely F-4 problem though; i don’t think i’ve ever seen MIG-23s for instance double tap SARH missiles (they will sometimes shoot two AA-7s, but those are those crazy russian heat seeker variants) test it yourself if you don’t believe me. the ACMIs bear it out. they can do it.
(note: i’m not sure which ACMIs you’re talking about because in at least one an F-4 ripples two sparrows within about a second of each other and they both track and slam into the same aircraft about a second apart. i’m not sure if they’re supposed to do that; maybe it’s possible for them to guide multiple sparrows at the same target; i just mention it because i’m not sure.
Ripple firing multiple AIM-7D/Es at the single target was done a lot in Vietnam - when they actually left the rail……