Refueling tips anyone?
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Boxer gave the same feedback if I recall correctly, a force sensing stick (if calibrated correctly) should make your AAR easier.
And as he wrote the book (and the code for that matter) it’s worth quoting his advice on AAR here too, particularly the bit about sight picture versus trying to rely on instruments and the porpoising (the see-sawing that TerryW mentioned above) that often ensues when you do that. This echoes what Dee-Jay and mirv recommend, hence the suggestion to train with the HUD off to force you to focus on the sight picture.
Training with the HUD off is not a bad thing for other reasons too. First time you get battle damaged, your HUD (and MFDs maybe) are not working and you’re a long way from home it’s really handy to know which way to turn
A couple of technical points and an observation if I may.
You do not need, nor should you use, the y-2 command on approach to the tanker. The only time that is useful is when you have already been on the boom to take fuel, you have not yet hit y-3 (done), and you disconnected with the AR/DISC button (usually mapped to the HOTAS). Then and only then the use of y-2 will allow you to get more fuel again before you pass control of the tanker to the next receiver with a y-3. I would have left this command out entirely but during testing there was feedback that people wanted to use AR/DISC to kick themselves off the boom and then try hooking up again multiple times for practice finding and stabilizing for the contact position…y-2 lets the tanker know that even though you just said to disconnect (hitting AR/DISC to let go the refuel slipway latches) you want another go.
Secondly, matching speed with the tanker. Be a little careful with quoting absolute airspeed numbers; these can vary up and downwind as the tanker traverses the track pattern.
Which leads to the observation. As you approach, the boom tip marks the position in 3D space relative to the tanker that is the ideal spot to park the refuel slipway of your jet (located on the spine behind the canopy for the Viper). Going from pre-contact to contact that is what you are trying to do – put the slipway where the boom tip was. The boom operator in the tanker will fly the boom out of your way as you reach towards that position so you should fly right at it as a general rule. From a technique point of view, once I have stabilized at pre-contact I don’t look at HUD or any other cockpit indications for anything other than fuel flow – it’s all about being padlocked on the tanker at this point.
_Which means… From the pre-contact point on the only think I focus on is the tanker and the “picture” that I see of his underside. I move the throttle and provide stick inputs to achieve the picture that I want. Mostly what I am looking for is relative motion between me and the tanker once I am in the right place…the aim is to have the picture dead still once you are in the right place and hooked up to the tanker stays fixed on the screen and you have two greens on the PDI. Any time I see movement away from that condition it’s time to think about a small (and I do mean small) correction perhaps.
In general it seems people start AAR practice watching their airspeed and FPM in relation to the horizon line, trying to get stability and then watch the tanker as a secondary indication. This can certainly work and when the tanker is straight and level it’s not a bad setup – in Falcon4 BMS the tanker is pretty good at maintaining altitude so if you dial in 40 or so feet below the tanker’s datum altitude you are on the right plane (so to speak). The first clue that you may be making it harder than it has to be (by being glued to your instruments) is porpoising behind the tanker where your nose goes up then down then up and so on as you chase the FPM onto the horizon line with a near constant stream of stick inputs. This PIO is controllable once you get more of a feel for the amount of input to place with FPM with precision, but… The trouble is that the tanker also turns. From showing a fair few people how to tank, it’s my observation that the people who can stay on the boom regardless of what the tanker does are those who watch it as the primary cue. Folks that are watching the HUD or other cockpit cues for guidance are typically the ones who have trouble hanging on as the tanker banks, find it most tricky to hook up in the turn, and are invariably shaken off the boom when the tanker rolls out to straight and level.
And a bonus training tip for good measure:
If you are not sure where the correct positions are for things like pre-contact and contact and what the sight picture of the tanker should look like on your screen, try using the combat autopilot. The way to do this is to set combat AP (in the in-game setup menu area), then get into the AAR trainging TE (or equivalent), get within range of the tanker to call (sub 10nm), make your fuel request (y-1), await the call to pre-contact, then select autopilot (a). Now you can sit back and what the AI fly AAR. The AI is pretty good at this and flinds the pre-contact and contact points quickly and with precision…you can select your favorite view and watch where the AI parks at pre-contact and then contact and look at the tanker from there. Same goes for finding observation positions too.
The payoff… If you spend enough time getting good at AAR in the training TE (or wherever) you will find that your formation flying work will suddenly be easy as pie…you’ll be able to rejoin, slide into fighting wing and then on into fingertip and fly a BDA pass on your lead like a pro. Tankers are the best form of AI to use for solo training on formation work ;)_
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I used my flightstick monitor software to get a read-out and there is nothing there. It is all me . . .
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It took me a good few hours to nail refueling. When I realized that after getting into the pre contact position (just stay behind the boom in a steady formation until cleared) you just slide in under the boom and let the boom operator put that big stick in the hole, it all became very easy. I find I can refuel in the turn without any problems and like others have said it has enhanced my formation flying no end.
Stick at it. You will get it.
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I used my flightstick monitor software to get a read-out and there is nothing there. It is all me . . .
This makes you my hero, lol.
But seriously, its just practice, you’ll get better. I’d love to sit right next to you to just observe what you’re doing, but I guess you’re not from my part of the world :).
Just enjoy the ride and don’t be too surprised if suddenly you hear “contact”. One last tip though: keep the practice sessions relatively short. Maybe 6 tries, then do something else. Stop before the frustration sets in :).Q: when you give stickinput, do you get your stick to neutral again (alomost) right away, or only when you get where you want to be?
EDIT 1: Wobble will be your new callsign?
it has helped me (I like the heavier feeling a lot more anyway)
EDIT 2: have you ever heard about a simple “mod” to compress the spring of your X52? -
Dont forget: Master Arm…SAFE!!! :D:shock:
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This goes against a lot of what is written here, but it is another perspective. I know some people will dismiss this (and in many ways I dont blame them) but I do instruct close formation by day, and I know this is not what you do in reality, but playing BMS is quite different to reality :eek:
A key thing I think worth mentioning is that flying formation is BMS is much harder than doing so in real life. This is due to a number of factors, but primarily due to the poor cues for rate of closure, and also lag. In real life the graphics are better, you can see every rivet of the lead aircraft and therefore very small changes in closure can be picked up instantly. Not only that, there is no lag, so you will see them instantly and your aircraft with react to your inputs near instantaneously. Milliseconds of lag that were never a factor in game now are and can easily induce oscillations. For this reason I use a technique different to what I would do in a real aircraft- I actually scan the HUD very quickly. 90% of the time I am looking at the tanker, but every couple of seconds my eyes come onto the HUD for 1/4 of a second. This is because until you are latched and get the lights, typically your most precise and accurate (not necessarily most obvious) cue for rate of closure comes from your airspeed which does not suffer most of the errors a typical IAS system would. If you establish the base speed of the tanker before you start you can very quickly judge small amounts of closure from your own IAS.
Also if you are suffering PIOs (pilot induced oscillations) in pitch, make sure you are perfectly in trim at your tanking speed before you start. You can do this when you stabilise off the tanker wing tip.
As also discussed previously, throttle movements should be microscopically small. If you are starting to throttle bash or pitch up and down, relax on the controls, take a breath, wiggle your fingers and stabilise.
Just another perspective, sorry the sound is low.
Just remember I am not looking at the IAS, just scanning it very quickly while looking at the tanker/lights.
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A thought just popped up… maybe the OP is staying in the tanker’s turbulence?
Terry, can you post a screenshot from the moment you’re having this hard time? -
I stop looking at instruments once I am past the jet wash. I use almost all visual ques. Very small inputs on throttle and stick. The aircraft takes time to react to your inputs, so correct early to stop from over correcting. Take a deep breath and use your fingertips on your controls. I have always told our trainees that it isn’t that you can’t refuel, it’s that you haven’t learned to master your stick and throttle. Try getting right behind the Tankers left wing and see if you can fly with it for a while before you move in. Then maintain your speed and position and slide SLOWLY to your right until you are lined up with the boom. Remember CORRECT EARLY and use very small inputs!
If you watch Kalza’s video, look at the horizon line on the HUD. You can tell his corrections are so small that you can barely see the horizon line change. Also, he starts a forward input, and almost immediately stops it with a reverse input so he doesn’t over correct. Also notice how when approaching, he puts the boom right in the center of the HUD. Remember not to duck Nice video. And yes, I do scan the HUD, but very little.
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Probably one of the more radical suggestions is to practise with the HUD turned off (Dee-Jay has a
) as it forces you to react to what the tanker is doing and not use the HUD as a crutch, trying to second-guess speed, the horizon etc.For anyone who is still getting good at AAR form up on the tankers wing (without calling ‘done refuelling’) after you’ve taken on fuel and stay in formation as the tanker flies his racetrack pattern. If you can stick with him in formation you will find flying with human wingmen so much easier.
You can do a number of variations with the built-in training TE:
- Flying #2 position (as shown below) to practice on-deck positioning. You can tailor this for the AI lead to finish refuelling in straight-and-level or turning flight by timing the tanker call.
- Disconnecting mid-turn to gently slide into post-refuel observation.
- Sticking with the tanker for longer period of time to simulate a larger flight.
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Its all about developing a sight picture and giving yourself some space so you can make mistakes and adjust… Just like the Thunderbirds: When a new guy starts flying w/ the team the formations are very loose. As the comfort level grows the formation tightens up. When you form up on the left side of the tanker position some part of the tanker on the top right tip of the HUD’s mounting frame and work to hold the tanker in that position…develop that sight picture. Once you can hold that position consistently start moving around the tanker and start tightening up. Pick a part of the tanker and put your left or right hud frame on it. I flew helicopters in the Army, when flying a proper echelon right formation you’d position yourself so the skids on the airplane to your left created an “X”…this gave one proper clearance for horizontal & vertical spacing.
Additionally…“walk” the throttle if you can. Throttle technique is essential: make a fist like your holding the throttle…now ever so slightly “walk” the left side of your hand forward, then the right side…reverse it when throttling back…all movement in generated by the wrist. My brother flies Hornets and this is what he was taught. This forces you to use your hands rather then your entire arm when making inputs to the throttle. Develop a light touch on the controls, then learning to hover I would squeeze the cyclic so hard my left arm would start shaking…same with my legs on the pedals. One time my IP took the controls and hovered using only his index finger on the top of the cyclic. Point is if your body is locked up and tense you’ll have a much harder time with small, finely tuned inputs…think fine motor skills verses gross motor skills.
Lastly, like a few guys have already said: Practice.
1. Give yourself space
2. Develop sight pictures around the tanker
3. Learn to “walk” the throttle
4. Develop a light touch on the controlsGood luck.
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Additionaly, fly the mission as wingman and not leader. You’ll still have to ask for a refuel yourself though.
When your leader refuels, stay on the tanker wing, in formation. Its much easier to rejoin, have a sense of what throttle level is required, and the transition to the boom is really easier.
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I’ll include all your suggestions in my next set of sessions. I am keeping them short. The wife is sick of my swearing. . .
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Keep us posted…. you’re 50 helpfull posts away from your starting point now and we want to see the results
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Could write a book.
I did 1/2hr flying wingman and watching no1 fill up. I wish that flaming tanker would stay straight tho. . .
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Practice I guess, actually I think its more psychological than anything else, if you think you will fail, …YOU WILL!!..PMA (positive mental attitude).
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Additionally…“walk” the throttle if you can. Throttle technique is essential: make a fist like your holding the throttle…now ever so slightly “walk” the left side of your hand forward, then the right side…reverse it when throttling back…all movement in generated by the wrist. My brother flies Hornets and this is what he was taught. This forces you to use your hands rather then your entire arm when making inputs to the throttle. Develop a light touch on the controls, then learning to hover I would squeeze the cyclic so hard my left arm would start shaking…same with my legs on the pedals. One time my IP took the controls and hovered using only his index finger on the top of the cyclic. Point is if your body is locked up and tense you’ll have a much harder time with small, finely tuned inputs…think fine motor skills verses gross motor skills.
Good luck.
I like this post, as I’ve always wondered how instructors teach actual techniques on how to grasp/hold the hotas and how to manipulate it with a “proper” technique.
Actually, flying this sim and others since 1998, I’ve kind of figured this out subconsciously after many hours of flying. You simply don’t hamfist the stick/throttle like they do in TOP GUN or that really dumb movie with Louis Gosset Jr (Forget the name now…Iron Eagles or some shit).
My first real sim was the F14 one back in '90-'91 I think…was it a Micropros game…can’t remember…I digress.
Anyhow, good info!
DrDetroit
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An old racing driver saying “Slow is smooth. Smooth is quick.”
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GOOD VIDEO Dee
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Could write a book.
I did 1/2hr flying wingman and watching no1 fill up. I wish that flaming tanker would stay straight tho. . .
LOL….refueling in a turn. That’s the next hurdle. Have you tried a shot of Bourbon first? In a turn, you will need two :drink: