Does POS-RUK mode for HARMs work well on BMS?
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I’ve been trying to destroy SA-3 and SA-2 sites using POS-RUK mode, but the HARMs always go up chasin the moon and don’t go to the SAM i preasignated using the WPN page.
At first i was trying to hit SA-3 sams wihtout succes, so after making a search on the forum, i found someone with the problem and an answer was that probably the SA-3 site was outside of the boresight range of the HARM, becasue it was working well with SA-2. So i tried using it agains SA-2, and same result, the missile goes up and overpass the SAM site.Here i give a couple of videos of the dozens of times i tried to hit the SA-2.
This is a TE mission, where on STP 5 there is a SA-2, and on STP 6 there is a SA-5. I fly directly at stp 6 at angels 20-22 with POS-PB or POS-EOM mode set, waiting for the SA-2 to lock on me. When it happens, i change to RUK submode, select “2” (SA-2) on the table, use the RWR to position the SA-2 aproximately in front on me, and pickle. The HARM goes out but does not direct itself to the working sam.
On one ocassion i even tried to keep flying straight to keep the SA-2 lock on me and the HARM still never went after the SA-2 site. Of course i also got shot down.Example 1
Example 2
You will see on the HSD the ring of the SA-2 that i’m trying to destroy using RUK submode.
Can anybody tell me what i’m doing wrong? If i’m doing something wrong
Thanks!
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I haven’t seen that RUK HARMs make any heading change from launch which I thought they would. They seem to bias about 20kft above launch altitude. NOE climbed to about 20kft and 30kft launch climbed to about 50kft.
Using the HARM TE and going for STP 57 I fired a max kinematic range RUK against “2” threat at approx 50nm and 30kft. The missile reached a cruise altitude of 50kft and acquired the Fan Song radar somewhere between launch range and 50% of launch range, tracked and destroyed the target.
I’ve had less luck shooting RUK at shorter ranges as the SAM begins to launch missiles. Maybe the pitch up puts the threat out of the seeker FOV. I have had the HARM RUK acquire and track the seeker near instantly off the rail but without consistency. I believe RUK is optimized for acquire in the level “cruise” segment of flight.
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I have found RUK mode to be best for defensive, close-range shots, and it hasn’t failed me yet. For everything else I use PB or EOM.
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The missile target type must be selected.
RUK works good on singers(seeker locked on the rail). For short range SAMs (2,3,6), I like to wait till I get a visual on the inbound missile to launch.
However, if the emitter blinks after launch, it continues to nav to the SAM, me thinks.
It seems if RUK does not get a lock off the rail it will nav to the current wpt. I assume it can acquire a new target in flight.Two things I’m missing is having more than one threat selected from the threat table and should there be something that says the seeker is locked and target type while on the rail.
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I have found RUK mode to be best for defensive, close-range shots, and it hasn’t failed me yet. For everything else I use PB or EOM.
How do you do that? Have you seen the two videos? I selected the correct SAM type on the WPN page and released the HARM, and it never went for the SAM that was locking up on me. I aslo tried it on close-range shots against SA-3, and same result.
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The missile target type must be selected.
I did selected the missile target type, as shown on both videos.
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How do you do that? Have you seen the two videos? I selected the correct SAM type on the WPN page and released the HARM, and it never went for the SAM that was locking up on me. I aslo tried it on close-range shots against SA-3, and same result.
The only explanation I can think of is that the SAMs were outside of the HARM’s FOV. I always wait until I visually see the launch and put my nose straight at the SAM site before launching. Try putting the SAM sight right in the middle of your HUD before launch.
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I did selected the missile target type, as shown on both videos.
<shrug>a few things I do different.
LMFD: POS page RMFD: HSD
Jammer off
Select a STPT that is closer to the target. Maybe the loft program is decided by STPT range. Your is 80nm. Mine is <30n. I don’t know why the HARM is at 30k.
Or you’re not getting a lock at launch</shrug> -
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RUK shouldn’t have a loft program. The only mode that should have lofting is PB, IIRC.
I still think it’s an issue of FOV. I have successfully destroyed SAMs with RUK mode when my current STPT is 20nm behind me. If the emitting target is within the HARM’s FOV it will lock shortly after launch.
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RUK shouldn’t have a loft program. The only mode that should have lofting is PB, IIRC…
That’s the bug.
If the DLZ bracket has a “60” above it and a STPT is selected puts the caret above the “60” it does the loft program. Firing at SA-6 smoke out of the launcher cause the -88 to go into orbit. If the target is guncrossed it hits behind the target.
. I have successfully destroyed SAMs with RUK mode when my current STPT is 20nm behind me. If the emitting target is within the HARM’s FOV it will lock shortly after launch.
20nm behind the is ok, I tried it. 80nm behind is not. Check the DLZ at 20nm behind….no “60” and caret in low in the DLZ.
I would do the bug report but I already spent my bugfix credit.
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Unless there’s another criteria I can’t get a HARM to live more than 200 seconds. With a somewhat sloppy launch I managed a 58.2nm standoff kill vs a Fan Song I think in PB. I wonder what standoff I can achieve in other modes. Presumably EOM is superior as the path is quicker and can make better use of the 200 seconds. With slightly better technique I managed a 73.1nm EOM shot against a Long Track with 3:11 predicted TOF (3:17 TOF actual).
I tried long shots in all POS submodes and found little difference in that regime. Perhaps PB or even RUK have an advantage by going active sooner and thus getting more speed by diving down sooner but it was slight.
What I haven’t tried is off-axis shots. The -34 says that launch restrictions for PB are ± 5 degrees and that the MMZ/ALZ range symbol won’t show up until. I also think in reality the weapon release requires weapons computer consent (flashing FOV box) much like CCRP is consent-based.
The hands-on TMS, cursor, pinky controls for POS/HAS control are quite nice. I wish the HAD page had a TMS command to step between threats or something to discriminate co-located targets. I think in a true self-defense scenario HAS mode might be best but I’m not sure to what degree post-launch steering in RUK disrupts arbitrary bearing threats.
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Here i give a couple of videos of the dozens of times i tried to hit the SA-2.
This is a TE mission, where on STP 5 there is a SA-2, and on STP 6 there is a SA-5. I fly directly at stp 6 at angels 20-22 with POS-PB or POS-EOM mode set, waiting for the SA-2 to lock on me. When it happens, i change to RUK submode, select “2” (SA-2) on the table, use the RWR to position the SA-2 aproximately in front on me, and pickle. The HARM goes out but does not direct itself to the working sam.
On one ocassion i even tried to keep flying straight to keep the SA-2 lock on me and the HARM still never went after the SA-2 site. Of course i also got shot down.
!Try selecting STP 5 (SA-2) before launch. The STP does not need to be on the SA-2. Try the STP <30nm from the a/c. Wait for a RWR launch detection to fire.
IMO, there is a lofting bug.
The -88 should be able to lock the SA-2 pre-launch and range it with seeker’s slant angle and altitude the same way HAS does it. The bug is using the current STPT range and not seeker ranging. When the current STPT is >60nm (STP 6) it looks as if a loft component is added to the navigation when the -88 should be taking a LOS course.
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Try selecting STP 5 (SA-2) before launch. The STP does not need to be on the SA-2. Try the STP <30nm from the a/c. Wait for a RWR launch detection to fire.
IMO, there is a lofting bug.
The -88 should be able to lock the SA-2 pre-launch and range it with seeker’s slant angle and altitude the same way HAS does it. The bug is using the current STPT range and not seeker ranging. When the current STPT is >60nm (STP 6) it looks as if a loft component is added to the navigation when the -88 should be taking a LOS course.
There is no bug
In POS mode at launch the harm has absolutly no idea of the range of the target (target is unknown)
So the only range the harm knows is the STP range
If steepoint handed off is far missile will go loft immediatly
There is no bug , it is as per design
Before launching in POS make sure that the STP selected is more or less in the area of the supposed sam
If you dont have a correct STP just mark an aera ans use the mark STP number
You can not expect the harm to have a correct flight profile when your target is 20NM and you asked tje harm to fly initially at 80NM
Dont forget : in POS the harm has no idea where the sam is when launched
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There is no bug
In POS mode at launch the harm has absolutly no idea of the range of the target (target is unknown)
So the only range the harm knows is the STP range
If steepoint handed off is far missile will go loft immediatly
There is no bug , it is as per design
Before launching in POS make sure that the STP selected is more or less in the area of the supposed sam
If you dont have a correct STP just mark an aera ans use the mark STP number
You can not expect the harm to have a correct flight profile when your target is 20NM and you asked tje harm to fly initially at 80NM
Dont forget : in POS the harm has no idea where the sam is when launched
I will try that, but to be honest i´m surprise that the STP haves any influence on the flight path of the HARM when you use RUK submode. According to the BMS manual when you use RUK submode, the head activate inmediately after the missile left the aircraft. I understand the logic that the missile does not know where the SAM is when released in POS mode, but i don´t find the logic when using RUK submode that you must have a STP around the area of the possible SAM site. RUK submode it suppose to work as a rapid self defense mode, that IMO means that i could be flying to a stp 200 miles away for all i care, and all the sudden i have a warning of SAM site in range, so i switch to POS-RUK, select SAM type, aim my nose to the direction of the SAM threat and missile away. After that is getting defensive and wait for the HARM to go after the SAM threat.
By using the RUK submode, the logic is that the HARM would ignore completely the stp selected, it will just try to go after the stronger signal of the selected SAM type and try to reach it, being in range or not.
I can´t see the logic of having to create a markpoint around the SAM area, it would take several precious secconds to do so. -
I will try that, but to be honest i´m surprise that the STP haves any influence on the flight path of the HARM when you use RUK submode. According to the BMS manual when you use RUK submode, the head activate inmediately after the missile left the aircraft. I understand the logic that the missile does not know where the SAM is when released in POS mode, but i don´t find the logic when using RUK submode that you must have a STP around the area of the possible SAM site. RUK submode it suppose to work as a rapid self defense mode, that IMO means that i could be flying to a stp 200 miles away for all i care, and all the sudden i have a warning of SAM site in range, so i switch to POS-RUK, select SAM type, aim my nose to the direction of the SAM threat and missile away. After that is getting defensive and wait for the HARM to go after the SAM threat.
By using the RUK submode, the logic is that the HARM would ignore completely the stp selected, it will just try to go after the stronger signal of the selected SAM type and try to reach it, being in range or not.
I can´t see the logic of having to create a markpoint around the SAM area, it would take several precious secconds to do so.Sorry but the logic is pretty clear to me
The missile must have a flight profile off the rails
If the flight profile is always without loft you will tell me that in RUK you arenunable yo hit 50nm distant threat
So it makes sense to me to tell the missile which flight profile it should apply.and this is done by.STP selection
And about the logic FYI we didnt invent it , we implemented the real logic as close.as we could /know
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Perhaps PB or even RUK have an advantage by going active sooner and thus getting more speed by diving down sooner but it was slight.
RUK should be the only one to go active sooner (right after launch). In both EOM and PB the HARM doesn’t go active until 5nm from the STPT, IIRC. The only two differences I can find between EOM and PB are the FOV and lofting cues in PB.
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RUK should be the only one to go active sooner (right after launch). In both EOM and PB the HARM doesn’t go active until 5nm from the STPT, IIRC. The only two differences I can find between EOM and PB are the FOV and lofting cues in PB.
U need SEAD tactics to make it work earlier than 5nm. Difficult to do with AI. With AI u must be the carrot and instruct him to take out the thread.
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SEAD tactics won’t change the range at which the seeker head is programmed to go active….?
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RUK is the same as HAS(both range unknown/target of opportunity modes). so use HAS better. u dont want the HARM to go active ASAP since it searches a larger geographical area making it susceptible to a miss or an impact somewhere within the Missile Impact Zone.