SimShaker for DCS World and Falcon BMS support thread
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Gents, may I ask you to put in the thread SimShaker support related posts.
Thank you. -
From me, the best G feedback we can have in sim is a inflating G suite. Maybe, as an additional/second option, pallets on the seat (roll & positif Gs) and/or “dynamic” harness (only able to simulate deceleration)
Direct Gz feedback, probably. However on a practical side, the Jetseat I think can give some of the the feedback of Gz and maybe some of the the axes. There is many practical reasons we aren’t using G Suits already. But I also won one of the 3rd Space Vests cheap off eBay so I will be sing if I can use it to overcome my old nemesis of pneumatics to make a viable G suit solution if I can A. somehow get a simple software solution going and then B. carefully cut it up and tailor it into a G Suit solution (I’ll crate abother thread on that when I know more). But again, honestly my G state SA is so much better than previous versions with the combo of HMCS G readout, BMS pilot grunt, and SimShaker high AOA shudder.
FWIW, a G Seat can give Gz, Gx, and Gy feedback and a harness still can give negative Gz info too.
I might be mistaken, but I think Simshaker sound module can do this. IIRC the software launches custom made wav files for the Jetseat, but could be adapted to send adjusted wav files for that subpacS2 for events read out of shared memory (so independent of in pit audio & comms).
Yep, which also gives the advantage of not making things rumble at wrong times for those using bass transducers like Buttkickers. Also my question on the subpac would be what does that do that the Jetseat doesn’t do and for cheaper.
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Can you elaborate on what “G-feeling effect (switched off by default) spreaded to cover BMS F-16” is please?
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Can you elaborate on what “G-feeling effect (switched off by default) spreaded to cover BMS F-16” is please?
That has been discussed a bit above
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?24665-SimShaker-for-DCS-World-and-Falcon-BMS-support-thread&p=367297&viewfull=1#post367297 -
That has been discussed a bit above
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?24665-SimShaker-for-DCS-World-and-Falcon-BMS-support-thread&p=367297&viewfull=1#post367297Aha cool. Will test this evening
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Just want to give a big +1 to Andre for his efforts. I ordered my JetSeat from him on 10-Feb, and it arrived today. Just about two weeks, and it’s working perfectly. Thanks!
Andre, I had a question about the low speed/stall effect. Is it purely driven off of AoA? Although all the other effects behave exactly as I would expect (the rumble on the runway during landing/takeoff is my favorite - so cool), I’m finding the stall effect counterintuitive. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn’t. I’m not sure I understand under exactly what conditions it does. I can drive AoA up to 14 degrees or higher without the motors activating sometimes. But I have no real-world piloting experience, so perhaps it’s realistic and I just don’t know what to expect.
Anyway, thanks! Thrilled it has arrived.
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Hi Andre,
Just want so say the new G-Force effects are really well done. Loving the way positive and negative G’s are implemented. (First time making a roll really put a smile on my face)
Now for my question, I noticed the G-force effect is only switched off completely when 0 G. This sounds ok but flying straight and level actually has 1 G default.
Result is the rotors will be permanently on the whole time. (pushing the stick forward to 0 G indeed stops the effect)
Will it be possible to make it an option to actually start applying G-Force effects at 1+ G’s instead of 0 G? So the user can decide if he wants the permanent rumble or only when >1 G
Or some other smart option to still have the option to switch between the 2 options.
Hope you see what I try to explain
Also really like to hear what would be actually the most realistic force feedback when flying straight and level, what you guys think? Only start rumble from 0+Gs up, or 1+G up?Cheers Obi1
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Hi Andre,
Just want so say the new G-Force effects are really well done. Loving the way positive and negative G’s are implemented. (First time making a roll really put a smile on my face)
Now for my question, I noticed the G-force effect is only switched off completely when 0 G. This sounds ok but flying straight and level actually has 1 G default.
Result is the rotors will be permanently on the whole time. (pushing the stick forward to 0 G indeed stops the effect)
Will it be possible to make it an option to actually start applying G-Force effects at 1+ G’s instead of 0 G? So the user can decide if he wants the permanent rumble or only when >1 G
Or some other smart option to still have the option to switch between the 2 options.
Hope you see what I try to explain
Also really like to hear what would be actually the most realistic force feedback when flying straight and level, what you guys think? Only start rumble from 0+Gs up, or 1+G up?Cheers Obi1
Aha-ha-ha, I’ve just finished to prepare special offline distributive package for you, mate
Glad to hear that you’ve managed to install SimShaker at your flight PC!Yes, we can add some options to the G-feeling effect. Let’s disscuss that.
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@candera:
Just want to give a big +1 to Andre for his efforts. I ordered my JetSeat from him on 10-Feb, and it arrived today. Just about two weeks, and it’s working perfectly. Thanks!
Andre, I had a question about the low speed/stall effect. Is it purely driven off of AoA? Although all the other effects behave exactly as I would expect (the rumble on the runway during landing/takeoff is my favorite - so cool), I’m finding the stall effect counterintuitive. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn’t. I’m not sure I understand under exactly what conditions it does. I can drive AoA up to 14 degrees or higher without the motors activating sometimes. But I have no real-world piloting experience, so perhaps it’s realistic and I just don’t know what to expect.
Anyway, thanks! Thrilled it has arrived.
Hi Craig,
great news
Cheers!Stall effect is AoA based. I agree, it’s not perfect in BMS. Try to observe AoA readings from shared memory and compare it with the effect produced.
You can use for that purpose SimShaker -> View -> Show Flight Data window. -
@candera:
Just want to give a big +1 to Andre for his efforts. I ordered my JetSeat from him on 10-Feb, and it arrived today. Just about two weeks, and it’s working perfectly. Thanks!
Andre, I had a question about the low speed/stall effect. Is it purely driven off of AoA? Although all the other effects behave exactly as I would expect (the rumble on the runway during landing/takeoff is my favorite - so cool), I’m finding the stall effect counterintuitive. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn’t. I’m not sure I understand under exactly what conditions it does. I can drive AoA up to 14 degrees or higher without the motors activating sometimes. But I have no real-world piloting experience, so perhaps it’s realistic and I just don’t know what to expect.
Anyway, thanks! Thrilled it has arrived.
I think there may also be a speed value to the the high AOA shudders, can’t remember right now and away from the computer. Stall characteristics are different in every airplane, it is possible to have an accelerated (High G stall) shudder less than a low speed stall partly because of the amount of time it takes you to get to the critical angle of attack, but I really don’t know how an F-16 feels in a stall or high AOA.
Yes, we can add some options to the G-feeling effect. Let’s disscuss that.
I would prefer no shake at 1 G, we are all experiencing 1 G when flying our sims.
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Stall effect is AoA based. I agree, it’s not perfect in BMS. Try to observe AoA readings from shared memory and compare it with the effect produced.
You can use for that purpose SimShaker -> View -> Show Flight Data window.Will do. I have some of my own shared memory utils I can use, too. I’ll report back.
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@candera:
Will do. I have some of my own shared memory utils I can use, too. I’ll report back.
OK, I tried it. It’s perfectly consistent: AoA above 17 degrees produces stall vibration. I guess I’d like to see mild buffet onset before that, maybe configurable, or at least something that matches the coloring in the AoA gauge in the cockpit, which starts to show orange at, what?, 13 degrees? One of the things I want from the JetSeat is better awareness of the performance of the aircraft, and 17 degree AoA is pretty severe. I’d like to be able to, for example, execute an overhead break by pulling to a certain level of buffet.
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@candera:
OK, I tried it. It’s perfectly consistent: AoA above 17 degrees produces stall vibration. I guess I’d like to see mild buffet onset before that, maybe configurable, or at least something that matches the coloring in the AoA gauge in the cockpit, which starts to show orange at, what?, 13 degrees? One of the things I want from the JetSeat is better awareness of the performance of the aircraft, and 17 degree AoA is pretty severe. I’d like to be able to, for example, execute an overhead break by pulling to a certain level of buffet.
But then you will be getting the buffet at pretty low threshold for other maneuvers. The CAT1 limiter has a max AOA of 25 @1G and still above 20 AOA until about 7.5G. Don’t know if/when buffet happens in the real plane though. AOA gauge color codes are just for approach AOA, not stall.
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But then you will be getting the buffet at pretty low threshold for other maneuvers. The CAT1 limiter has a max AOA of 25 @1G and still above 20 AOA until about 7.5G. Don’t know if/when buffet happens in the real plane though. AOA gauge color codes are just for approach AOA, not stall.
Yep - I have no idea either. But if you read the T-38 manuals in the docs folder, they talk about using various buffet amounts to gauge manuevers, so I suspect that in RL there is some sort of feel to non-insane levels of AoA. The colors on the gauge were just me throwing out the only AoA-related thresholds I have access to - agree that they may not be relevant.
Anyway, if someone here has a clue how it actually works, I’d love to hear it. Regardless of what real buffet is, I might still want to ditch realism and set a lower threshold in SimShaker anyway, just to have some sort of feedback, so my feature request stands. A perfect world would have sensible defaults and give me configurable thresholds for onset and max, so I could set, say, linear increase from 0 to 100 percent from 13-17 degrees, with max above 17.
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@candera:
Yep - I have no idea either. But if you read the T-38 manuals in the docs folder, they talk about using various buffet amounts to gauge manuevers, so I suspect that in RL there is some sort of feel to non-insane levels of AoA. The colors on the gauge were just me throwing out the only AoA-related thresholds I have access to - agree that they may not be relevant.
Anyway, if someone here has a clue how it actually works, I’d love to hear it. Regardless of what real buffet is, I might still want to ditch realism and set a lower threshold in SimShaker anyway, just to have some sort of feedback, so my feature request stands. A perfect world would have sensible defaults and give me configurable thresholds for onset and max, so I could set, say, linear increase from 0 to 100 percent from 13-17 degrees, with max above 17.
Just throwing out there, 13 is on speed for approach and pretty much no aircraft I’ve heard of (or flown but I only fly the small stuff ) buffets on final. I don’t know what an F-16’s critical AOA but it shouldn’t buffet until relatively close to it and the limiter allows up to 25 degrees, I don’t think buffet will happen as low as 13. Also try dogfighting with the AOA info onscreen. Hehe, I think the 17 (or maybe even a little later) is a pretty good point for it to come on, going earlier have things saturated before you get to fighting AOA. When comes on I know I need to start thinking about easing up but maybe not quite yet. I’ll do some fights and watch my AOA and see what I generally hang out at in a turning fight.
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Just throwing out there, 13 is on speed for approach and pretty much no aircraft I’ve heard of (or flown but I only fly the small stuff ) buffets on final. I don’t know what an F-16’s critical AOA but it shouldn’t buffet until relatively close to it and the limiter allows up to 25 degrees, I don’t think buffet will happen as low as 13. Also try dogfighting with the AOA info onscreen. Hehe, I think the 17 (or maybe even a little later) is a pretty good point for it to come on, going earlier have things saturated before you get to fighting AOA. When comes on I know I need to start thinking about easing up but maybe not quite yet. I’ll do some fights and watch my AOA and see what I generally hang out at in a turning fight.
It’s certainly possible that 13 is a ridiculous number. Plus, I should admit that I’ve only tried a few short test flights - perhaps loadout, fuel remaining, etc. etc. will show me that 17 is the correct threshold. So far it has been the case that I have been surprised by how seemingly late and briefly the effect comes into play, but I will continue to play around and see if that affects my perception.
At any rate, it’s fun - you should all buy one.
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@candera:
It’s certainly possible that 13 is a ridiculous number. Plus, I should admit that I’ve only tried a few short test flights - perhaps loadout, fuel remaining, etc. etc. will show me that 17 is the correct threshold. So far it has been the case that I have been surprised by how seemingly late and briefly the effect comes into play, but I will continue to play around and see if that affects my perception.
At any rate, it’s fun - you should all buy one.
Hehe, I understand! One other thing my flight instructor self has to add is that stall and thus buffet always happens at the same AOA because it has to do with the airfoil shape. Some planes have very little buffet at all, part of the reason stick shakers are built into airliners.
I can’t wait for mine to get here, dang ocean and such!
Found this on another site about space stuff trying to find more info about F-16 buffet and since you referenced the T-38, thought I would quote this. The F-16’s strakes were added partly to reduce buffet. Bold on “turn” was added by me:
Having logged about 1,200 instructor hours in the T-38 I can certainly second the motion of the astronauts that the T-38 was a sheer pleasure to fly and probably most pilot’s favorite aircraft. It certainly wasn’t an easy plane to learn to fly (the wash out rate would attest to that) but once you learned to fly it wasn’t “difficult” (but isn’t that the case with most airplanes?) One thing it was is it was a very unforgiving airplane.
As mentioned, there is little room for error, especially in the approach and landing phase of flight.Because of the very short wing, approach and landing speeds were higher than they are for most aircraft and the stall margin was less. The final turn to landing was actually flown in a stall buffet – at a fairly high angle of attack that is very unusual for that phase of flight. I don’t know of any other aircraft that required this.
Because of this, there is little room for error (i.e.; bad spacing, strong crosswinds, over aggressive turns, etc). and the majority of crashes occurred in the final turn. But this also was one of the most fun phases of flight as it was also one of the most challenging.
So note they would get stall buffet only on base to final turn :shock:, not on final itself, and it was at least to him a rare thing compared to other aircraft (don’t know if he flew F-16s).
EDIT to add: Looked at the T-38 manual in the docs and crunched the buffet numbers for an F-16 if F-16 critical AOA is 25 and it buffets at the same AOA ratios as the T-38 (but neither of those ifs are probably accurate):
“Light Tickle”= 10-13.75 F-16ish
Light buffet (and the T-38’s green donut! hmmm )= 15 F-16ish
Moderate buffet= 17.25 F-16ish
Heavy buffet isn’t a definite number but happens with full aft stick apparently…Very interesting, you maybe on to something if the buffet regiems are similar for both aircraft!
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So note they would get stall buffet only on base to final turn :shock:, not on final itself, and it was at least to him a rare thing compared to other aircraft (don’t know if he flew F-16s).
Continuing the discussion because a) it’s interesting! and b) I hope that we’re helping Andre.
To quote from the T-38 manual:
5.7. Airframe Buffet Levels. As a baseline for common reference, this manual will use the
following terms for airframe buffet levels, described in order of increasing AOA:5.7.1. Light Tickle. The light tickle is the first consistent appearance of high frequency, low
amplitude vibration on the airframe due to AOA. The lower the airspeed the higher the AOA
at which this occurs—typically at about 0.55 AOA during clean 1G deceleration in level
flight, to about 0.4 AOA at 400 knots.5.7.2. Light Buffet. The light buffet is defined as the buffet at 0.6 AOA (green donut).
5.7.3. Moderate Buffet. Moderate buffet is the buffet from approximately 0.69 AOA to the
definite increase in buffet intensity, just short of wing rock.5.7.4. Definite Increase in Buffet Intensity. The definite increase in buffet intensity is the
point where the buffet increases in amplitude, but the frequency becomes slower and
irregular. This typically occurs at approximately 0.8 AOA—usually closer to 0.8 with the
flaps up, and often slightly higher (0.8 to about 0.83) with the flaps at 60 or 100 percent.5.7.5. Heavy Buffet. Heavy buffet is the buffet from AOA higher than the definite increase
in buffet intensity to the point where the stick is at the aft stop.These terms are used throughout the rest of the manual (“Pull to light buffet” is a common phrase in the manual, for example), to help cue the pilot for various maneuvers, including BFM. I have no idea what the numbers correspond to in degrees, although the reference to the donut suggests that buffet is occurring even at moderate, on-speed AoA. But as you point out the T-38 is different enough from the F-16 that it’s probably difficult to correlate in any event.
Still, this is the basis for me wanting this sort of feedback when I’m flying. Perhaps even if it’s unrealistic. As I said - I need to get a bunch more stick time with the JetSeat before I really make up my mind.
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@candera:
Continuing the discussion because a) it’s interesting! and b) I hope that we’re helping Andre.
To quote from the T-38 manual:
These terms are used throughout the rest of the manual (“Pull to light buffet” is a common phrase in the manual, for example), to help cue the pilot for various maneuvers, including BFM. I have no idea what the numbers correspond to in degrees, although the reference to the donut suggests that buffet is occurring even at moderate, on-speed AoA. But as you point out the T-38 is different enough from the F-16 that it’s probably difficult to correlate in any event.
Still, this is the basis for me wanting this sort of feedback when I’m flying. Perhaps even if it’s unrealistic. As I said - I need to get a bunch more stick time with the JetSeat before I really make up my mind.
LOL, see my edit, took me longer to read it and crunch the numbers!