Trim needed on TE-5
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For some weird reason, on TE 5, Package 4977 aircraft (2nd group) seems to be rolling left ever-so-slightly and requires a bit of right trim but Package 4980 (first group) does not have this issue. This happens regardless of whether I’m flying lead or #2, and I don’t think it’s a fuel issue as both external wing tanks are empty and as far as I can tell, both internal wing tanks have the same fuel level as the needles are aligned. Does anyone else have this issue?
I don’t think it’s a hardware calibration issue because I can have this happen on Package 4977, exit that mission, go straight to Package 4980, and have no problems with needing to trim the aircraft at all.
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For some weird reason, on TE 5, Package 4977 aircraft (2nd group) seems to be rolling left ever-so-slightly and requires a bit of right trim but Package 4980 (first group) does not have this issue. This happens regardless of whether I’m flying lead or #2, and I don’t think it’s a fuel issue as both external wing tanks are empty and as far as I can tell, both internal wing tanks have the same fuel level as the needles are aligned. Does anyone else have this issue?
Just to clarify, the needles are aligned when the Fuel Quantity Select knob setting is INT WING and not NORM? What do the needles show in EXT WING?
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Asymmetrical loadout.
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Well, unless bombs have been dropped from the block 40 prior to AAR, the loadout is symetrical.
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The loadout is assymetrical, for no particular reason.
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by loadout we usually mean external store. I made the TE and the stores are loaded symetrically on the block40.
If you consider fuel as part of the loadout, which is not incorrect indeed, then yes. A fuel situation can also provide an imbalance inducing the need for trims.
Ice ruled out the situation, but my bet is indeed on the fuel situation -
Just to clarify, the needles are aligned when the Fuel Quantity Select knob setting is INT WING and not NORM? What do the needles show in EXT WING?
Yep, needles are aligned both on INT WING (at 5) and on EXT WING (at 0).
Asymmetrical loadout.
The TE starts with a symmetrical loadout with just wing tanks and some missiles.
@Red:
Ice ruled out the situation, but my bet is indeed on the fuel situation
An ever-so-slight fuel imbalance? I’ll top up the jet again to see if that fixes it, but I don’t remember having to zero the trim after topping up.
Has anyone tried this TE recently to see whether they get this problem too?
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RD, you are forgetting the TGP on the Block 40s
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does the tgp provide drag in 4.33?
if yes then yep, that might be the issue, but i thought the pods in 4.33 weren’t ?
as you are mentionning it, that tells me they are
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Well, the aircraft in Package 4977 do not have the TGP loaded, so that’s not the culprit. The TGP is present on the aircraft in Package 4980 and is mounted on the right side, but the aircraft does not need any trim to compensate.
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I’m a total noob here, but just happened to notice this quote with respect to TE 5:
“- Unconfirmed: Leaving air refuelling door open for too long may cause trapped fuel problems and balancing issues in 4.33.”
From: http://www.51stvfw.com/mobile/forum/viewthread/m/12860957/id/24810412-433-training
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“- Unconfirmed: Leaving air refuelling door open for too long may cause trapped fuel problems and balancing issues in 4.33.”
Ice did you have a TRP FUEL?
Well, the aircraft in Package 4977 do not have the TGP loaded, so that’s not the culprit. The TGP is present on the aircraft in Package 4980 and is mounted on the right side, but the aircraft does not need any trim to compensate.
so 4980 is the block 40 and 4977 is the block 15.
so you have the issue on the easy AAR with the block 15, correct? -
Sorry but what’s a TRP FUEL? Trapped fuel? Regardless, the issue is present right at the start of the TE and the refuelling door isn’t even open yet.
@Red:
so 4980 is the block 40 and 4977 is the block 15.
so you have the issue on the easy AAR with the block 15, correct?Yes, the issue is with the -15 aircraft. I’m not sure what you mean by “easy AAR”…
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The -15 jets in this TE have an AIM-9 on one wingtip, and an AN/ASQ-T50(v1) training aid on the other. The v1 weighs ~144lbs, while an AIM-9M weighs ~189lbs. I have always considered this the reason for the slight imbalance.
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Sorry but what’s a TRP FUEL? Trapped fuel? Regardless, the issue is present right at the start of the TE and the refuelling door isn’t even open yet.
the training script dumps fuel, back in testing, the dumping of fuel with the script was creating a imbalance
hence my question …I’m not sure what you mean by “easy AAR”…
The TE offers two scenario. one easy with a responsive aircraft to simulate post flight AAR (easy) That’s the block 15
and one more challenging at lower altitude with a heavily loaded aircraft to simulate pre strike AAR (more difficult) that’s the block 40The -15 jets in this TE have an AIM-9 on one wingtip, and an AN/ASQ-T50(v1) training aid on the other. The v1 weighs ~144lbs, while an AIM-9M weighs ~189lbs. I have always considered this the reason for the slight imbalance.
Sounds plausible as well,
Do we have a slight imbalance after firing a wingtip slammer or sidewinder?
I think I recall it was considered too small to create an imbalance back in developing.
The Acmi pod came on later, maybe the same logic wasn’t applied?Red Dog
Reality if for ppl who can't handle simulation -
@Red:
the training script dumps fuel, back in testing, the dumping of fuel with the script was creating a imbalance
hence my question …I see… well, no indication of TRP FUEL that I can see, but I’m no expert in diagnosing this. What should I be looking for? The manual says something about the “NAV” line on the left side of the HUD being replaced with “FUEL” but this isn’t the case on my TE. Are there any other indicators to confirm whether or not it’s a TRP FUEL situation?
@Red:
The TE offers two scenario. one easy with a responsive aircraft to simulate post flight AAR (easy) That’s the block 15
and one more challenging at lower altitude with a heavily loaded aircraft to simulate pre strike AAR (more difficult) that’s the block 40I always had trouble with the Blk 40 but I thought it was more of the refuelling aircraft causing me problems due to the different sight picture and feeling much closer to the tanker… and maybe even a smaller tolerance for drift. While you say the Blk 15 should be “easy,” I’ve always had more hassle with this due to the trim issue.
@Red:
Sounds plausible as well,
Do we have a slight imbalance after firing a wingtip slammer or sidewinder?
I think I recall it was considered too small to create an imbalance back in developing.
The Acmi pod came on later, maybe the same logic wasn’t applied?Tried it again just now, fired off the sidewinder, and the imbalance is still there. Not as much as before, but the aircraft still rolls to the left. Even when starting the aircraft at around 5-10 degrees of right roll, it will still roll to the left.
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@Red:
Sounds plausible as well,
Do we have a slight imbalance after firing a wingtip slammer or sidewinder?
I think I recall it was considered too small to create an imbalance back in developing.
The Acmi pod came on later, maybe the same logic wasn’t applied?If a slammer is loosed from the wingtip, yes, definitely. It is a pain in the butt
I’d hazard a guess a sidewinder on one tip only creates an imbalance too… would need to check to be sure though.Edit - gave it a quick go, AIM9M on one wingtip does indeed create an asymmetric load!
Shot a vid too… -
@Red:
Sounds plausible as well,
Do we have a slight imbalance after firing a wingtip slammer or sidewinder?
I think I recall it was considered too small to create an imbalance back in developing.
The Acmi pod came on later, maybe the same logic wasn’t applied?You need to re-read the FM articles, RD
The mechanical module computes in real-time all the mechanical coefficients related to the aircraft. That means:
Total weight of the aircraft,
Evolution of the position of the Center of Gravity (CG) with fuel consumption and weapons,
Evolution of the complete 3 x 3 inertia matrix with fuel and weapons,
Force and torques coming from gravityAs long as the weapon weigth is correctly defined in the DB, it will be taken into account.
