Maverick question
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That must be one of the things the guys meant when they told me the G missile had/has a “better” seeker than the F…I have a lot of experience with the F missile, and the LMAV for that matter. But from what I read on the web the two are just optimized for different target sets and appear to be the same other than that. I also know the USAF has done a better job of integrating the G into the sensor suite…which is another reason I would use it as I describe.
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I suspect finding pilots using more than one maverick per pass is also limited by the availability of valid targets, too. In training you want to maximise the training attempts, so you are not going to ripple active mavericks for the sake of doing it. In a full up shooting war where you have your pick of valid targets though, this would be a little different. Getting those valid targets could be more of an issue. In Vipers in the Storm, they brought back their mavs fairly often, IIRC.
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Target set, cost of the weapon, availability of the weapon…other RW effects that aren’t modeled in BMS.
…after looking at some of the BMS MAV tutorials, yeah…I’m convinced the G missile is more capable than the F. AND - “ripple” means something different to me in my Navy world…I “ripple” bombs and/or rockets - QTY/MULT/INT - and use that term exclusively to describe that; one pickle depression/multiple weapons away. That’s not what people are doing with MAV in this case…they’re doing multi pickles…which isn’t the same thing. Mea Culpa…I’ll get this lingo straight one day. Maybe…
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There is some debate over that…
There is no debate here, and repeating the same thing and quoting the same sentences from the 3-4 again and again will not change anything, I suggest to re-read my post above if you really feel like you need to
Those posts being here:
Well… I sure hope that you:
1. Realize that it would be EXTREMELY odd for me to just pop such behavior out of my mind.The implication of course being that you did not make this up, and that you are not the firsthand source for the information. The only issue there is the flack that Dan Hampton gets over the stuff in Viper Pilot, specifically the things he says you can do in an F-16, which no manual supports.
Hi,
You need to RTFM the Maverick section of the BMS 3-4. Once a Mav is slewed, it becomes ground stabilized and works on its own, in order to “Reset” it you can change Master mode to DGFT/MRM-Override and cancel.
See, the manual agrees that this will work. By switching master modes, you move the SOI away from the WPN page, and thus command a return to slaved condition. There is no debate about this - it will work.
I’m fairly certain that it is correct behavior, EVEN if the real manuals may suggest otherwise…
Well. As mentioned above, it is correct behavior, in that it will work. Its likely even operational practice, because switching to DGFT and back is quick and easy. That switching mastermodes is the only way to do that… the manual does not suggest otherwise, it flat out states otherwise. But it does not state that switching mastermodes will not work - because it will.
2.8.12.1.11.8 In non-TGP operations, the SOI moves to the WPN page (if displayed) upon the target designation.
Well, everyone agrees about this part also.
If the SOI is on the FCR page with either FTT or GMTT selected, then the SOI moves to the WPN page upon the target designation after the radar has acquired track.
This part is irrelevant to BMS, because FTT/GMTT acquire track instantly in BMS, rather than taking 5 to 10 seconds to get a stable track. So, its basically just the same as the last sentence, until/unless the GM/GMT modes get an upgrade in a future BMS version.
If the SOI changes from WPN to another sensor while the selected Maverick is in slew mode, then the Maverick is commanded into SLAVE (BORE) mode.
This is the part that is apparently disputed. If you, while in PRE with a mav tracking and a valid GMTT, position the DMS down, the SOI will switch to the FCR. According to the manual, the mav will return to slave at that point (or bore depending on mode). According to an unnamed source, the mav will remain in slew mode at that point, unless and until a mastermode change is commanded.
So I suppose there is some disagreement there. The manual in question may not relate to the same aircraft as the source is familiar with. The manual may be wrong. The source may be wrong. I think those three possibilities, are the only three?
Not knowing the source, I cannot know its accuracy. This is the wikipedia problem! The manual is certainly capable of mistakes, and given the wide range of F-16s and F-16 variations, its entirely possible that both the source and the manual are correct, depending on which F-16 you are discussing.
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“The info we got was in regards with the TGM-65 maverick training missile. The TGM-65 provides the same cockpit control response as the operational AGM-65 missile except it does not launch.
Cycling out of AG mode (this can be accomplished by momentarily selecting DGFT or MSL OVRD )reactivates the weapon video for reattack.
This was the information we got. Unless someone can provide additional ,reliable information ,the code will remain as it is. -
On one hand it’s pretty tragic to base anything AGM off that TGM note. The reason for cycling mode to restore video is the training missiles blank the video on simulated launch to simulate launch. It has nothing to do with AGM operations.
On the other hand I have no basis for saying anything about the current situation where breaking slave is a one-way ticket requiring some sort of hard reset of the process to resume the slaved state. One might take the subtle note that to target reject in EO VIS you HUD SOI and TMS down. In BMS it’s not possible to HUD SOI and TMS like this. The question is “wtf is target reject” and what does it do.
There are some clear corrections to make though:
1. MBC should kick WPN into EXP during the handoff process.
2. EO-VIS box should be able to be slewed via cursor like DTOS prior to designation.
3. Maverick uncaging is automatic after time out. Uncage button is only used to uncage earlier than the 3 minutes.
4. EO-VIS should allow MBC function (devs are aware).
5. RP 2 launches require holding WPN REL for ~2 sec.
6. Selecting OSB 8 (RP #) selects the data entry page instead of a rotary between 1 and 2. (maybe the engineers wised up that the only valid numbers were 1 and 2)EO-BORE SOI is hard to interpret. The current BMS forced HUD SOI is weird. It should be possible to have FCR or TGP or WPN SOI in EO-BORE. Considering the inability to slew the TDC in EO-VIS and the inability to relocate SOI in EO-BORE they are almost the same mode functionally.
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Tragic? You must be kidding. The closest we could get to real life AGM-65 employment was with the TGM-65.
BMS handles AGM-65 employment pretty good actually (launch… no WPN reactivation needed).
FYI,the question asked was :“How can I reset or remove the AGM-65 LOS circle or circles if no missile is launched.
Answer : “DGFT-MSL OVRD and back to AG”.
Of course we can re-ask the question and get more detail. As I said, the code will not change unless anyone (including us) has reliable info.
As for target reject. Its pretty simple. TMS down. And why make the HUD SOI in E-O VIS for target rejection? The SOI moves to the WPN for a reason.
As for the list of corrections, it is known and we have added more. -
+1, as Leech has it figured…all sounds logical to me.
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Id say it sounds like we are not disagreeing with the manual then. The manual comments on the differences between the TGM-65 and the AGM-65. One of those being, to reactivate the video as discussed above. It also describes how to reset a nontracking (slew mode) maverick back to slave/bore condition, by moving the SOI away from the WPN page. As this happens when you change mastermodes, it would seem that the instructions match up with how it works.
NB: I goofed in my last post with the word ‘tracking’. It should have been a Mav in slew mode, rather than a mav in track mode.
Edit: seeing as we are discussing the differences here… what is the chances that a future version could have TGM-65s that work correctly avionics wise?
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the question asked was :“How can I reset or remove the AGM-65 LOS circle or circles if no missile is launched.
Answer : “DGFT-MSL OVRD and back to AG”.Perfectly correct answer to that question. “Land, shut down, try again tomorrow” is also a valid answer to that question as well.
As for target reject. Its pretty simple. TMS down.
That just breaks track. By reject I mean like when you ground the box in DTOS and change your mind.
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Perfectly correct answer to that question. “Land, shut down, try again tomorrow” is also a valid answer to that question as well.
That just breaks track. By reject I mean like when you ground the box in DTOS and change your mind.
Yes… correct answer but I doubt anyone would take you seriously.
Lets put this to sleep.
Fact :The AGM-65 LOS circle can only be removed if you exit the AG mode and transition to NAV, AA, MSL OVRD or DGFT or the missile is launched. TMS dose not remove the LOS circle (Applies to PRE / BORE / VIS).
Fact :
Switching to MSL OVRD / DGFT adds a second property when the TGM-65 training missile is used. It reactivates the weapon video for re-attacks.
These are facts, and cannot be disputed.If there is some software upgrade in the latest tapes, that is something I have no knowledge about.
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I dispute that that is fact, and posit that while your description of TMS is correct, that DMS can remove the LOS circle, and that this SOI transition which happens when the mastermode is transitioned, is the reason that changing mastermodes removes the LOS circle.
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In next update you will be able to remove the LOS by changing any MM and not only DGFT/MRM-OVRD.
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…in effect, by positively deselecting the weapon in any manner…which sounds perfectly reasonable for the TGM.
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I dispute that that is fact, and posit that while your description of TMS is correct, that DMS can remove the LOS circle, and that this SOI transition which happens when the mastermode is transitioned, is the reason that changing mastermodes removes the LOS circle.
Lost you,… and you dispute a fact ? On what basis ?
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+1 in agreement Leach, as the DMS simply reassigns SOI and should not deselect the weapon; but transitioning master mode does. As long as the MAV is under pickle the appropriate symbology should persist.
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I dont dispute a fact - I dispute that it is fact. A minor distinction. I don’t feel that is has been adequately proved to be a fact in the first place. 2.8.12.1.11.8 (quoted numerous times) specifically denies it.
2.8.12.1.11.8 In non-TGP operations, the SOI moves to the WPN page (if displayed) upon the target designation. If the SOI is on the FCR page with either FTT or GMTT selected, then the SOI moves to the WPN page upon the target designation after the radar has acquired track. If the SOI changes from WPN to another sensor while the selected Maverick is in slew mode, then the Maverick is commanded into SLAVE (BORE) mode.
This is the part that is apparently disputed. This last sentence. As I had thought had been made pretty clear on the last page.
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Actually, this makes perfect sense because the cursor assignment is being moved to the new SOI and the MAV is still under pickle. So all the missile can do is go to SLAVE. DMS should do nothing to the weapon selection, and that’s the real point of why it shouldn’t drop any weapon symbology - the MAV is still powered up; only dif between the TGM and the AGM is missile present on the wing - the TGM is always there, and so the circle persists until the selection is cycled.
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As the slave condition is the predesignate condition for the weapon, its a not insignificant nuance. Changing mastermodes also takes SOI away from WPN, and has the same effect - and is mentally easier to associate than is DMS, which is very likely why it would be taught as operational practice, especially given the tie in with the TGM-65, given how aircrew will likely use that more often than the AGM-65.
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It really does not matter which missile is used. Symbology and procedures are the same.
With the TGM-65 loaded ,once the pickle button is pressed for a simulated shot (or shots) the avionics behave as if an AGM-65 was fired. You will still see weapon quantity countdown and removal of the LOS circle for the ‘launched” missile etc. The only difference is that the missile remains on the launcher, and the WPN page can be reset for subsequent shots.