Why Virtual Reality for BMS would improve the experience by order of magnitudes.
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Light, sure. Flimsy, not so much. Ill concede that the buttons could be more tactile, with an accurate depression force per the real ones, but they arent flimsy.
In fairness the same argument can be made of the comms switch, or the trigger button, or the ICP, or the DED, or most of the cockpit.
During weapons release, its not a big deal. In the wheel it is though. On the ground before takeoff it is though. Just because its unimportant at one specific stage of a mission, doesnt mean its not a useful aid to your sim.
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Inject reference data cards either on the kneeboard texture, xfire proxy technique when you look down to have them appear and have a button to cycle through them, and plain use the nose gap to look at your real knees.
Much too low resolution for that to be practical on modern VR systems. And the nose gap is a true immersion blower. I never have one, as it completely shatters the illusion I am trying to build.
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Operation of avionics in procedures approaching realistic becomes immersion breaking.
So you said, but I was hoping you could expand on that rather than restating it. Perhaps provide examples? Explaining the view instead of (or as well as) sharing it?
Again, as stated from the very start, my comments apply to flying BMS as a war bird simulator, in procedures attempting to be close to real procedures.
Great! Glad we share this perspective.
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Inject reference data cards either on the kneeboard texture, xfire proxy technique when you look down to have them appear and have a button to cycle through them,
Are these working now? Can you show me a video of these things in action? If they are available and working now, then I may have to re-assess my view on VR with regards to these items.
and plain use the nose gap to look at your real knees.
This is a workaround.
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I fly with “just a HOTAS”. It’s all I need. The only time I use the keyboard is to talk on IVC ( <f1 &=“” f2=“”>and Teamspeak (<scrolllock>) in 2D world.
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I can certainly “afford other game aids”. That was almost condescending, but I don’t think you meant it that way when you typed it.
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Flying “with just a HOTAS” here as well. I positively do not want e.g. those light, flimsy MFD things. Why pay for some buttons when I might just as well press them with the mouse in game? It’s not like they’re of vital importance during actual shooting/bomb dropping, unless you’re doing something bizarrely wrong.
Good for you that you can afford game aids, but I wasn’t “saying,” I was asking… or presenting other reasons. Either way, that was a totally different discussion.
Also, we have agreed that just for flying, indeed, the HOTAS is all you need. When dogfighting or dropping iron, having to use the mouse/keyboard/touchscreen/mfd/ICP means you’ve messed up your setup… which you should’ve done before stepping into the phone booth or going down the pipe. We are in agreement in that regards. Having everything set up properly in terms of switches or modes and just “being there” and fighting or dropping bombs, in other words, being in a situation where all you need is in your HOTAS, then VR rocks. We also agree in that regards.
But what about during those times when what you need is NOT on the HOTAS? Ramp starts. Setting up your jet. Fencing IN/OUT? Having to turn on Mavericks or switching bomb delivery profiles? What about those times when you’ve been ambushed by enemy fighters and have to change modes/settings real quick? As Blu3wolf says:
During weapons release, its not a big deal. In the wheel it is though. On the ground before takeoff it is though. Just because its unimportant at one specific stage of a mission, doesnt mean its not a useful aid to your sim.
I am simply saying that these game aids make cockpit work much easier. Can you still do it with a mouse? Sure! Is it easier with a mouse? Nope.
Another more important point is that it makes cockpit work much easier ALL THE TIME. Clicking on a button with a mouse while the jet is on the ground is fine. Try doing that as you are padlocked on a target or keeping your head on a swivel. Much more difficult. With a physical Cougar MFD or a touchscreen, it will also be difficult due to task saturation but it will still be easier than “hitting a target with the mouse cursor.”
Your HOTAS works fine without being able to see it. Your switch panels do not cease to exist when unobserved. Your ICP can be operated despite being blindfolded.
True on all points, and like I said, I can see VR and replica cockpits working together nicely. Heck, if I had a replica cockpit, I’d be so deep in the rabbit hole that VR is a no-brainer addition to it. The problem with a non-replica pit is that the MFD or ICP, while still fully operational, is no longer located in the place where you see it in VR. Therefore, you need to “locate” it in the real world in order to operate it. While you can operate a keyboard blindfolded by being familiar with the keys and locating the indents on the F and J keys, there are no such tactile cues on a touchscreen and even with physical switches, you’d still have to “orient” yourself via touch. Sure, this makes the process do-able (via touch) but it would be immesurably quicker and easier if you could see the “target” switch/button and interacting with it rather than feeling for it like a blind man.
So you said, but I was hoping you could expand on that rather than restating it. Perhaps provide examples? Explaining the view instead of (or as well as) sharing it?
Let me try…. Setup A is a 3x27" monitor with 1x24" touchscreen. Setup B is VR. I’m flying along and suddenly I’m hit by flak. I’m still flying but my HUD is down and I’ve got a few other yellow lights as well. Oh joy. Mission abort. I could just press “E” and be done with it but this is a campaign and I’d like to try to bring my jet back in one piece. I realize I’m leaking fuel as well and I don’t think I can make my home plate, but the alternate is nearby. I need to switch to that radio freq to tell them I’m coming in with an injured bird, but I don’t have the airbase freq committed to memory. I need to pull out a sheet.
Setup A would just have me look down, pull up my printout, locate the needed information, enter it on the ICP, double-check that I’ve entered the right numbers, then tuck the sheet back under my leg or wherever it’s from. Not much in terms of “breaking immersion” there because we all know pilots refer to checklists and other printed materials all the time.
Setup B would have me take off my VR, pull up my printout, locate the needed information, put the VR back on to work with the cockpit, enter it on the ICP, double-check that I’ve entered the right numbers (probably via the nosegap as taking the VR off again would be too troublesome), then tuck the sheet back under my leg or wherever it’s from.
Now this is a very simple example, just needing to retrieve info (airbase freq), entering it on the ICP, and going from there. What about having to work off an approach plate? Or departure procedures? Or landing on a unfamiliar airfield and needing to know which turns to take to get you to your parking spot? How about participating in big organized flights and you have to locate the info pertaining to your strike group, what ID they have, what Victor freq they are on? Or finding info about the alternate tanker TACAN/freq because the primary tanker is busy or has been shot down? You’ll have to decide which is more immersion-breaking — having to look through the nosegap all the time or having to take off the VR goggles.
Bottom line is if your “Falcon Experience” simply consists of single player (or small group MP) with runway or taxi starts, if you don’t have a problem with leaving an injured plane in the air over enemy territory as you just exit the sim, if you mostly do TEs or instant action dogfights, if you only do minimal cockpit work and think that you don’t need to do it in an emergency situation, then yeah, VR brings more to the table than it takes away.
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We already agreed that for a touchscreen, VR prevents the use - as the touchscreen depends on sight. I dont look for my switches or buttons though. I know where they are, and I can access them as fast blindfolded.
I would argue that constant reference to checklists is not an avionics issue, but either way it definitely present an issue with VR. Hardly an insurmountable one, given the present ability within BMS to display kneeboards, but a significant one. I am a little surprised to hear that folks flying big MP events dont have the AB freqs for their alternate committed to memory, though.Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk
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We already agreed that for a touchscreen, VR prevents the use - as the touchscreen depends on sight. I dont look for my switches or buttons though. I know where they are, and I can access them as fast blindfolded.
I’m curious about your pit setup there, Blu. Got a pic? I’m guessing your statement is a vote for physical switches, which has been on my “to-do” list for a very long time…. I just need to find the time to do that and the guts to work with electronics.
I would argue that constant reference to checklists is not an avionics issue,
I don’t see where I made it to be an avionics (electrical systems in the aircraft) issue; the issue was getting access to the correct information to input into the avionics.
I am a little surprised to hear that folks flying big MP events dont have the AB freqs for their alternate committed to memory, though.
They might very well have it memorized, but I don’t! :wfish:
Still, that was only one of the examples cited. -
The avionics question was directed specifically at the poster I quoted; I suspect I disagree with their view but unless its clarified I cannot be sure.
As for touchscreens vs switches, I am sure touchscreens are great for some folks. Until I wish to simulate an F-35 cockpit though, I am not one of those folks.
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Still don’t see the issue. When I have to use the OSBs, I use the mouse. I have never had an issue with that. As for being jumped by enemy fighters, what should I use my mouse for? Emergency Jettison + Missile/Dogfight mode.
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Agree; MFDs are a nice to have thing, not an essential to have thing. Though Id rather have them than not.
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Heh, in 16 pages, I’m still not exactly sure why there’s arguing.
If BMS added VR support, I assume it wouldn’t be forced on everyone. That’d mean that those that want to use VR can do and those that don’t can leave it turned off. I really don’t see where the issue is and why it has to be one way or the other.
I think this entire thread can be summed up by saying “Support in FBMS would be fantastic and greatly received by those of us with (or getting) HMDs. If you don’t want to use VR, then don’t use it”.
Cheers,
Del.
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The avionics question was directed specifically at the poster I quoted; I suspect I disagree with their view but unless its clarified I cannot be sure.
As for touchscreens vs switches, I am sure touchscreens are great for some folks. Until I wish to simulate an F-35 cockpit though, I am not one of those folks.
I see, apologies for mis-reading! As for touchscreens, yeah, I agree with you. Nothing beats the tactile feel. In fact, I hate “texting” on modern smartphones…. however, I’ve little skill in electronics or soldering and for some reason, I’m afraid to jump into it. I will, one day… or just but one of the pre-made ones if I hit the jackpot in the lottery. I’ll probably need to start buying tickets though.
Still don’t see the issue. When I have to use the OSBs, I use the mouse. I have never had an issue with that. As for being jumped by enemy fighters, what should I use my mouse for? Emergency Jettison + Missile/Dogfight mode.
True, you can use the mouse. Touchscreen or Cougar MFDs just make this process way easier. See my post above regarding “precision cockpit work” and my challenge of hitting an OSB while moving your head.
Heh, in 16 pages, I’m still not exactly sure why there’s arguing.
If BMS added VR support, I assume it wouldn’t be forced on everyone. That’d mean that those that want to use VR can do and those that don’t can leave it turned off. I really don’t see where the issue is and why it has to be one way or the other.
I think this entire thread can be summed up by saying “Support in FBMS would be fantastic and greatly received by those of us with (or getting) HMDs. If you don’t want to use VR, then don’t use it”.
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Keep it civil, constructive and relevant to the topic or lose the thread, nobody wants to see your fight.
Just tossing this back out there, since it seems to need repeating.
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if we have to come in here and moderate it again guys, forum vacations will be handed out.
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Just tossing this back out there, since it seems to need repeating.
Does it? Seems like civilized discussion to me.
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I’ll just swing by and say that modern VR support in BMS is something I’m eagerly awaiting, just for that sheer sense of presence and being in the cockpit. TrackIR has nothing on this.
However, BMS as it currently stands is unfit for VR in the first place and must be drastically overhauled to support it properly.
-The renderer is DX9 if I recall correctly, which is a big step up from the original DX7, but I don’t think the Rift or Vive officially support anything under DX11.
They’ll need to overhaul the renderer again, fixing all the issues that prevent having a comfortable stereoscopic VR experience along the way. Hey, Team Fusion managed to pull it off with IL-2: CloD somehow, maybe it can happen for BMS.
-Far more worrisome is the interface itself, which also needs to be overhauled for comfortable VR.
The menus will need to be projected onto a virtual monitor surface like DCS and ED do it, all the little radio messages and such will need to be moved away from the edge of the eye buffers and closer to the center if you’re going to be able to see them (believe it or not, those barrel-distorted eye buffers are largely wasted!), the mouse cursor will probably need to be replaced with a gaze cursor that handles depth properly (again, look at DCS), and then there’s everything the lot of you mentioned about having to consult material outside of the sim itself, particularly if it’s not already on your kneeboard.
It’s going to be a ton of work for sure, but the rewards would be immense, enough to be worth pursuing.
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It’s going to be a ton of work for sure, but the rewards would be immense, enough to be worth pursuing.
+1,000!! BMS unfit for VR, VR unfit for BMS, but if we can pull this off –- pure awesomeness!
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So you said, but I was hoping you could expand on that rather than restating it. Perhaps provide examples? Explaining the view instead of (or as well as) sharing it?
Examples? Like when flying in a valley and preparing for a pop-up bombing, in A-G mode and operating the MFD’s, and the RWR wakes up with an enemy plane looking at you from 1 o’clock, and you frantically look over your shoulder while rapidly pressing the A-A button, and hovering your finger above the stores release while trying to figure out if you need to abort and engage?
Anytime things get intense and task loading increases, the limitations of the input system become apparent. And the mouse is out the window VERY quickly.
VR compounds this by blocking view to physical inputs and having too low resolution for the outputs. The resolution is just a technology issue. In five years that may well be no problem anymore. Depending on what kind of VR solutions dominate the market. But it will still block the ability to see external inputs, barring messy camera solutions which at present do nothing but cause problems and nausea.
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That has nothing to do with VR. You can do all that with VR, same as if you are blindfolded.
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That has nothing to do with VR. You can do all that with VR, same as if you are blindfolded.
Maybe if you have a physical button that you can “feel” for and hover your finger over. Harder to do with a touchscreen. Same as touchtyping… you can do it easily and blindfolded with an ergonomic keyboard and while you can do it on an iPad, the results on the iPad will not be the same as with the keyboard.